Babylon the great

[fozzy]

Who is this Babylon in Revelation and how could the whole world worship her? There are two plausible candidates that are accepted by most Christians. One is Rome or the papacy and the other is Jerusalem. Those who see Babylon as Rome love to demonize the Catholic church and make the pope into the antichrist. They go into great detail of all the atrocities that were committed during the dark ages and reformation as proof for their claims. But what they can never answer is that Muslims, Jews, Hindus, Buddhists and the vast majority of the world’s religions do not worship Catholics. Babylon is bigger than the Catholic church.

There are two symbolic women in Revelation. One is said to be Babylon the great harlot and the other is a beautiful woman crowned with twelve stars that brings forth the male child. Babylon is said to be a great city that reigns over the earth but there is also another great city mentioned in Revelation and she is the new Jerusalem or the bride of Christ. Paul said the Jerusalem above is free and the mother of us all. So if one of these great cities is the new Jerusalem then it stands to reason that the other great city is old or earthly Jerusalem which is the mother of the old covenant and the Law. The whole world does worship something today and that something is the rule of law.

So the command to come out of Babylon in the last days will have a dual meaning. In the spiritual sense God is calling his people out of the old covenant and the law to the everlasting gospel which is based on faith in the perfect and complete sacrifice of Jesus Christ on behalf of mankind. Also in the last days Satan will physically come and set up his kingdom in Jerusalem and the entire world will flow into it. So in a physical sense we will be commanded to come out of Jerusalem as well. The tribulation will be global and in every nation but Jerusalem will be calling the shots for the whole world similar to how Washington enforces policy and law on the entire nation. The major events in Revelation will take place in Jerusalem.

Which leaves us with the Adventists who love to style themselves as the originators of the three angel’s messages. I have some bad news for them. They are in Babylon just like everyone else and need to come out as well. They teach the law more than anyone and can’t even finish a sentence without some shameless plug for the ten commandments. Their false prophet Jezebel aka Ellen White was actually sending the church into Babylon with her ten commandment gospel while outwardly professing to be calling people out. Such are the delusions of those who try to climb up to heaven some other way. God in his great mercy sent a most precious message to lead them out but alas it was rejected and they were left in perfect darkness.

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

Can you explain to us how the old Jeruselem fits in with the prophesies of Daniel and Revelation that identify Babylon, the beast power?

 

[fozzy]

That’s a rather lengthy study but suffice to say all throughout the OT Jerusalem was likened to a beautiful woman when faithful and a brazen harlot when unfaithful. Some examples of this are Isa. chap. 1 and Eze. chap. 16 where Jerusalem is compared to a harlot and Jer. 22 where she is called the great city. Lamentations is also a good example of Jerusalem being compared to a woman. In Revelation there are two symbolic women with one as Babylon the great and the other as the beautiful woman of chap. 12. Babyon is said to be a great city and this great city is identified as the place where Jesus was crucified in Rev. 11:8. There is another great city that is identified at the end of Revelation as the new Jerusalem or the bride of Christ. So both symbolic women or great cities are Jerusalem with one as Babylon or the bride of Satan and the other as the new Jerusalem or the bride of Christ.

Paul actually uses this exact analogy in Galatians where he compares Sarah to the new covenant and the Jerusalem which is above to Hagar as a symbol of the old covenant and earthly Jerusalem which is in bondage with her children. He also states just after this anaolgy that those who seek to be justified by the works of the law are fallen from grace. The 2nd angel’s message states that Babylon is fallen, is fallen that great city because she made all nations drink the wine of the wrath of her fornication. Babylon is fallen from grace and is same false gospel that Paul condemned in Galatia that was pushed on the Gentile Christians by the Judaizers. Jesus also uses the analogy of falling away to the believers at the church in Ephesus because they had left their first love.

I challenge any SDA or amazing facts person to show from the bible that Babylon is Rome of the Catholic church. I have provided ample scriptural support to prove my theories and I expect the same in return.

 

[High Fidelity]

Let's keep it civil, please

 

[fozzy]

Another common error by those who label the Catholic church as Babylon is labeling the pope as the antichrist. The antichrist power was in existence in John’s day which is hundreds of years before the Catholic church even came into power. It should be obvious that the antichrist is other than the pope so I want to go thru every verse on the antichrist and see if we can come to a rational identification.

Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time. 1John 2:18

Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. 1John 2:22

And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world. 1John 4:3

For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist. 2John 7

From these verses we can draw several conclusions:

1) there are many antichrists
2) antichrist denies Jesus is the Christ and the Father
3) antichrist denies that Jesus has come in the flesh
4) antichrist was in existence in the 1st century
5) antichrist is a spiritual being

From these verses we can conclude that the antichrist advocates false doctrine especially in regards to the nature of Christ. He was in existence in the 1st century and is a spiritual being. Antichrist as a spiritual being is very important because this excludes all human beings as candidates. No one can have the spirit of the pope or Nero or Hitler. Human beings are not spirits. It should be obvious at this point that the antichrist is Satan who is a spiritual being and is against Christ in everything. The bible says that Satan entered into Judas who later went and betrayed Jesus showing that Judas had the spirit of the antichrist or Satan. Anyone who comes to the point where Satan has control over them becomes part of the antichrist power. The bible says that we wrestle not against flesh and blood but against principalities and powers and spiritual wickedness in high places.

 

[DarylFawcett]

MOD HAT ON!!!!!

Thread clean up was done in relation to replying directly to a deleted post.

MOD HAT OFF!!!!!

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

The antichrist power that was at work in Christ's day and continues till ours is Satan. The Papacy is just another of it's manifestations throughout time.

Now the beast of Revelation is another matter ... that is squarely pinned to the Papacy... again under the influence of our defeated foe.

 

[fozzy]

The beast of Revelation is not the papacy or the Catholic church. Your understanding of prophecy is about a hundred years out of date and went out of fashion with the horse and buggy. The beast in Revelation has seven heads and ten horns and the harlot Babylon who rides on top. We have already discussed Babylon and seen how the bible in both the old and new testaments identifies her as the great city of Jerusalem or the old covenant. The best way to view the two symbolic women in Revelation is the old covenant versus the new covenant. These two systems of Salvation will have their final battle in the last days with the whole world being drawn into the conflict. In the issue of the mark of the beast and the seal of God everyone will be forced to take sides. There will be no more luke warm Christianity because everyone both small and great, rich and poor, free and slave will finally and forever become either hot or cold.

Satan or the devil is identified as the great red dragon with seven heads and ten horns in Rev. 12:9 which means that his spirit runs thru the entire beast and he is in control of all its parts. The same verse tells us that Satan and his angels are cast into the earth and this will bring a dimension to the end-time that will truly be terrifying. For 6000 years Satan and his angels have done their evil work from behind the scenes but at the end they will come out from the shadows and will personally take the field of battle. The seven heads are identified as seven mountains on which the woman sits - Rev. 17:9. The heads are also identified as kings so this is not some cryptic reference to any city that sits on seven hills or mountains. In the bible mountains were places of worship so these kings are religious in nature. The five religions that fell in the 1st century were Judaism, Islam, Mysticism, paganism and atheism all of which deny Christ. The one that still reigns is Christianity and the one who is to come will be some kind of new world order that will unite all religions under one banner - Rev. 17:10.

Paul said in 1st Corinthians that the Gentiles who offered sacrifice to idols were in reality worshipping devils or fallen angels. So each of these seven heads or false religions have an angel or god at the center of its worship. Even Christianity that has left the gospel and fallen from grace would be considered a false religion today. The bible bears this out when it says that the beast that was and is not even he is the eighth king and of the seven implying that Satan is of the other seven fallen angels - Rev. 17:11. The ten horns are also said to be kings but have received no kingdom as yet but receive power one hour or the last hour with the beast - Rev. 17:12. The ten horns are human kings or leaders of nations that we could not even accurately identify today because they have not received power yet. Satan and his angels will come at the end and devour the whole earth and tread it down and break it in pieces. They will divide the world up and ten leaders of nations will be chosen to rule and enforce the mark on the beast. Jerusalem not Rome will be embelished and adorned into a capital city that even Solomon could not dream of.

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

I think you watch to many Aronofsky movies... seriously Foz.

 

[fozzy]

I didn't think Ellen white allowed you to watch movies? You're more progressive than I thought.

Did you ever see the road to wellville? Even Hollywood makes fun of Adventists. lol

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

Even Hollywood makes fun of Adventists. lol

I consider that an endorsement for our faith...

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

I am curious if you know of anyone else that ascribes to your doctrinal theories? Or are you the only one that knows this?

 

[fozzy]

There are probably not many who ascribe to my particular brand of poison but there are multitudes who are running as far as possible from yours. I still have a lot of Adventist friends and none of them believe in 1844 anymore. That pillar has pretty much bit the dust. I'm doing my best to kick over the ten commandment pillar but that's going to be hard. Adventists do love their law and won't give it up without a fight.

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

Just to help you in your understanding, anyone who does not believe in the pillars that were taught by the pioneers are not SDA. I know there are many that do, but they are fools, calling themselves by a name and associating with what they don't even recognize as truth... truly deceived.

That would be as foolish as someone calling themselves a Catholic that does not recognize the popes authority and doesn't believe in the co-redemptive powers of the virgin Mary or any of their other tenets.

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

but there are multitudes who are running as far as possible from yours.

Interesting... just as sister White said would happen. Boy that girl sure was a good guesser, eh?

 

[fozzy]

So the fact that Satan is point blank identified as the beast in the bible has no weight with you. The fact that your own prophet had a vision where she saw Satan come at the end of time and impersonate Christ has no weight. You will still see the Catholic church in every verse of the bible whether it is there or not. You are so typical of the Adventism that I remember with just enough truth to be dangerous and a horrible witness to the world.

These things are coming whether you like it or not and those who are not prepared will be swept away when they get here. A faith based relationship is the only thing that will stand thru the last days. A law based relationship will crumble and fold at the worst possible time. Good luck with that law keeping, I heard it didn't work out so well for the Jews. Maybe you'll have better luck.

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

What did I say that would make you think I don't recognize satan as the dragon power behind the evil of this world. The papacy/vatican/romish entity is one of the agents through which satan operates.

My faith in God increases daily because my love for Him increases daily causing my obedience to Him to increase daily... pretty simple concept.

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

So the fact that Satan is point blank identified as the beast in the bible has no weight with you.

A beast in the bible is a kingdom or nation... the harlot riding the beast denotes a corrupt church controlling a kingdom or nation. Satan is identified as the dragon, not the beast. You really should get your Biblical understanding correct before trying to convince others of you opinion.

 

[fozzy]

A beast in the bible is a kingdom or nation... the harlot riding the beast denotes a corrupt church controlling a kingdom or nation. Satan is identified as the dragon, not the beast. You really should get your Biblical understanding correct before trying to convince others of you opinion.

Oh really!! I started this thread by challenging anyone to show from the bible that Babylon is the Catholic church or Rome and no one even responded. I was not asking for much just one verse. Adventists love to condemn Catholics for following tradition over the bible and they do the same thing. That is the very definition of hypocrisy. At least I can back up what I say with chapter and verse which is more than I can say for you. Maybe you should get your facts straight before you label someone as Babylon without any evidence.

You know if we take an honest look at the Adventist church and the Catholic church they are very similar. Both are old covenant in belief and exalt the law over the gospel. Both have extra biblical sources that are placed over the bible. Catholics exalt their saints while Adventists exalt their pioneers. Both churches exalt women to places of worship which is idolatry. Catholics with their Mary worship and Adventists with their Ellen White worship. And Catholics keep an unbiblical Sunday while Adventists keep an old covenant Sabbath. Wow! You have more in common with your mortal enemy than you thought!

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

*shakes dust off feet*