[b]Is water baptism obsolete?[/b]

[Dispy]

"For this is my blood of the new testament (covenant) which is shed for many, FOR THE REMISSION OF SINS (Matt. 26:28).

Heb. 9:16 "For where a testament is, there must also by necessity be the death of the testator."

Covenant: G1242 - diathēkē - dee-ath-ay'-kay = From G1303; properly a disposition, that is, (specifically) a contract (especially a devisory will): - covenant, testament.

There are many covenants (testaments) in the entire Bible. Each covenant had a specific purpose, some were unconditional and some conditional. Among those covenants we can find, Noahic Covenant, Abrahamic Covenant, Covenant with Lot, Covenant with Jacob. Mosaic Covenant, The Israel, Covenant, Davidic Covenant, National Covenants, Personal Covenants, and New Covenant.

The covenant (testament) I would like to discuss in this thread is the one of Matt. 26:28. It appears to me that a vast number on this board believe that Matth. 26:28 and Luke 22:20 is the fulfillment of the Covenant that is spoken of in Jeremiah 31:31:34 and mentioned in Hebrews 8:7-13. Also, many on this board believe that this new covenant (testament) is being fulfilled today. IMHO, nothing could be further from the truth. Further, the Church, the Body of Christ has no place in this "new covenant," whether it be the one in Matthew 26, and Luke 22, or the one mentioned in Jer. 31, and Heb. 8.

Jesus is speaking of His death in Matt. 26:28. It is only through FAITH in the death, burial and resurrection, of Christ that ones sins can be forgiven (remitted). He (Jesus) paid the sin debt or ALL mankind. Therefore every believer can say with Paul "I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live I live by the faith (faithfulness) of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me" (Gal. 2:20).

The blood that Jesus is speaking of in Matt. 26:28 is the blood He shed on the Cross of Calvary. The believer today is washed in that blood. It is not a symbolic washing in water that remits sins, but FAITH ALONE in the power of that shed blood.

The author in Hebrews is writeing to Jewish believer that were reared and taught all the aspects of the Law. The author writes "Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment" (Heb. 6:1, 2).

FAITH ALONE in the "death baptism" of Jesus Christ remits all sins. Therefore, I conclude, the rite water baptism is obsolete, and has no place in this dispensation of Grace.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord.

 

[beloved57]

Water baptism is obsolete, its been corrupted by anti christ christianity..

 

[beloved57]

Further, the Church, the Body of Christ has no place in this "new covenant

what verse says this ?

 

[Dispy]

Which covenant are you speaking of. Be specific.

 

[Epiphoskei]

FAITH ALONE in the "death baptism" of Jesus Christ remits all sins. Therefore, I conclude, the rite water baptism is obsolete, and has no place in this dispensation of Grace.

The difficulty you face is that the Church and the Apostles baptized with water in accordance with the command of Christ, and if you are to get around this, you need a mid-Acts dispensation. However, the verses you cite are about Christ and him sacrificed, and thus would have been in effect from the beginning of the Church. They don't support a seperation specifically in the middle of Acts even if we were to take them to mean a no-baptism dispensation at all.

 

[Dispy]

FAITH ALONE in the "death baptism" of Jesus Christ remits all sins. Therefore, I conclude, the rite water baptism is obsolete, and has no place in this dispensation of Grace.

[

The difficulty you face is that the Church and the Apostles baptized with water in accordance with the command of Christ, and if you are to get around this, you need a mid-Acts dispensation. However, the verses you cite are about Christ and him sacrificed, and thus would have been in effect from the beginning of the Church. They don't support a seperation specifically in the middle of Acts even if we were to take them to mean a no-baptism dispensation at all.

I must admit that water baptism was a requirement in the preaching of "The Gospel of the Kingdom." Therefore, I do not have difficulty with the Church and the Apostles baptized with water in accordance with the command of Christ. The Church during the earthly ministry of Jesus was a Jewish Church, not the Church, the Body of Christ.

If we today are to be following the commands of that Gospel, then one must do the things required in Matthew 5, 6, and 7. Read 5:17-22 and you will see who will be the least and greatest in that kingdom. Also try to keep the requirements of 6:19-34. Let me know how you are doing in that area. Further, Read 7:24-27 and let me know where your house is built.

What did Jesus say about His earthly Minestry? Answer: "I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Isreal" (Matt. 15:34).

If you desire to follow the teachings of the earthly ministry of Jesus, then do as He required in Matthew 23:1-3. "Then spake Jesus to the mustitude, and His disciples, Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after there wforks: for they say, and do not."

Paul tells is in Romans 15:8 "Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made to the (Jewish) fathers.

Paul tells us in 2 Cor. 5:16 "Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have know Christ after the flesh (His earthly ministry), know we Him no more."

Being a mid-Acts dispensationalist, I do not subscribe to a water baptims requirements for this dispensation of Grace. I do believe the "one baptism" of Eph. 4:5 is the baptism of 1 Cor. 12:13 "For by one Spirit (Holy) are we all baptized into one body (the Body of Christ), whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drind one Spirit."

When studying the Bible, always keep in mind what is being spoken, and to whom. Also, that God gave His instructions in righteousness to the children of Isreal through the Laws of Moses. For believers in this present dispensation of Grace, God gave us our insturctions in righteous through Paul who "...preached Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began" (Romans 16:25).

 

[beloved57]

Which covenant are you speaking of. Be specific.

what a dumb question..the new covenant, the one you just denied the church had any part of..

 

[packermann]

"For this is my blood of the new testament (covenant) which is shed for many, FOR THE REMISSION OF SINS (Matt. 26:28).

Heb. 9:16 "For where a testament is, there must also by necessity be the death of the testator."

Covenant: G1242 - diathēkē - dee-ath-ay'-kay = From G1303; properly a disposition, that is, (specifically) a contract (especially a devisory will): - covenant, testament.

There are many covenants (testaments) in the entire Bible. Each covenant had a specific purpose, some were unconditional and some conditional. Among those covenants we can find, Noahic Covenant, Abrahamic Covenant, Covenant with Lot, Covenant with Jacob. Mosaic Covenant, The Israel, Covenant, Davidic Covenant, National Covenants, Personal Covenants, and New Covenant.

The covenant (testament) I would like to discuss in this thread is the one of Matt. 26:28. It appears to me that a vast number on this board believe that Matth. 26:28 and Luke 22:20 is the fulfillment of the Covenant that is spoken of in Jeremiah 31:31:34 and mentioned in Hebrews 8:7-13. Also, many on this board believe that this new covenant (testament) is being fulfilled today. IMHO, nothing could be further from the truth. Further, the Church, the Body of Christ has no place in this "new covenant," whether it be the one in Matthew 26, and Luke 22, or the one mentioned in Jer. 31, and Heb. 8.

Jesus is speaking of His death in Matt. 26:28. It is only through FAITH in the death, burial and resurrection, of Christ that ones sins can be forgiven (remitted). He (Jesus) paid the sin debt or ALL mankind. Therefore every believer can say with Paul "I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live I live by the faith (faithfulness) of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me" (Gal. 2:20).

The blood that Jesus is speaking of in Matt. 26:28 is the blood He shed on the Cross of Calvary. The believer today is washed in that blood. It is not a symbolic washing in water that remits sins, but FAITH ALONE in the power of that shed blood.

The author in Hebrews is writeing to Jewish believer that were reared and taught all the aspects of the Law. The author writes "Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment" (Heb. 6:1, 2).

FAITH ALONE in the "death baptism" of Jesus Christ remits all sins. Therefore, I conclude, the rite water baptism is obsolete, and has no place in this dispensation of Grace.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord.

There is only one place that the Bible says FAITH ALONE. And that is in the Book of James. And there it says that there it says that we are NOT saved by FAITH ALONE (James 2).

 

[Epiphoskei]

The lack of the words is not the same thing as the lack of the teaching. Faith alone is certainly taught everywhere in the Bible. If everyone who believes will be saved (and scripture is clear about this in verse after verse in book after book), it necessarally follows that faith saves, and further that faith is sufficient for salvation, which is the same thing as to say that we are saved by faith alone. It is impossible to say everyone who believes will be saved if something in addition to faith is necesarry but not invariably present, inasmuch as by having faith, one becomes one of the all who have faith, who will therefore be saved. The only possible way for something to be additionally necessary is if it is invariably present in all believers, which is how the Reformed typically treat works.

Incidentally, the words "faith alone" are found in numerous Catholic pre-Luther translations of Romans 3, inasmuch as they saw it as a necessary understanding of what Paul meant in the passage.

 

[heymikey80]

The covenant (testament) I would like to discuss in this thread is the one of Matt. 26:28. It appears to me that a vast number on this board believe that Matth. 26:28 and Luke 22:20 is the fulfillment of the Covenant that is spoken of in Jeremiah 31:31:34 and mentioned in Hebrews 8:7-13. Also, many on this board believe that this new covenant (testament) is being fulfilled today. IMHO, nothing could be further from the truth. Further, the Church, the Body of Christ has no place in this "new covenant," whether it be the one in Matthew 26, and Luke 22, or the one mentioned in Jer. 31, and Heb. 8.

But as it is, Christ has obtained a ministry that is as much more excellent than the old as the covenant he mediates is better, since it is enacted on better promises. For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion to look for a second. Heb 9:6-7
​

Now this may be interpreted allegorically: these women are two covenants. One is from Mount Sinai, bearing children for slavery; she is Hagar. Now Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia; she corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children. But the Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother. ... Now you, brothers, like Isaac, are children of promise. Gal 4:24-26,28

you show that you are a letter from Christ delivered by us, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts. Such is the confidence that we have through Christ toward God. Not that we are sufficient in ourselves to claim anything as coming from us, but our sufficiency is from God, who has made us competent to be ministers of a new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit. 2 Cor 3:3-6

For I received from the Lord what I also delivered to you, that the Lord Jesus on the night when he was betrayed took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it, and said, "This is my body which is for you. Do this in remembrance of me." In the same way also he took the cup, after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me." For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until he comes. 1 Cor 11:23-26

the believers from among the circumcised who had come with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit was poured out even on the Gentiles. For they were hearing them speaking in tongues and extolling God. Then Peter declared, "Can anyone withhold water for baptizing these people, who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?" And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked him to remain for some days. Acts 10:45-48
​

 

[heymikey80]

If we today are to be following the commands of that Gospel, then one must do the things required in Matthew 5, 6, and 7. Read 5:17-22 and you will see who will be the least and greatest in that kingdom. Also try to keep the requirements of 6:19-34. Let me know how you are doing in that area. Further, Read 7:24-27 and let me know where your house is built.

"Now, therefore, why are you putting God to the test by placing a yoke on the neck of the disciples that neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear? But we believe that we will be saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, just as they will." Acts 15:10-11
​

Being a mid-Acts dispensationalist, I do not subscribe to a water baptims requirements for this dispensation of Grace. I do believe the "one baptism" of Eph. 4:5 is the baptism of 1 Cor. 12:13 "For by one Spirit (Holy) are we all baptized into one body (the Body of Christ), whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink one Spirit."

There's no reason to exclude water and wine from these two allusions Paul is making. In point of fact Paul has spent much of the prior two chapters alluding to the Lord's Supper (and even once to baptism). So the Spirit's role in baptism and the Lord's Supper is established in the context. And in dealing with a predominantly Gentile church, Paul has said not word one about water baptism or the Lord's Supper (ahem ... Passover) being abolished.

 

[jmacvols]

"For this is my blood of the new testament (covenant) which is shed for many, FOR THE REMISSION OF SINS (Matt. 26:28).

Heb. 9:16 "For where a testament is, there must also by necessity be the death of the testator."

Covenant: G1242 - diathēkē - dee-ath-ay'-kay = From G1303; properly a disposition, that is, (specifically) a contract (especially a devisory will): - covenant, testament.

There are many covenants (testaments) in the entire Bible. Each covenant had a specific purpose, some were unconditional and some conditional. Among those covenants we can find, Noahic Covenant, Abrahamic Covenant, Covenant with Lot, Covenant with Jacob. Mosaic Covenant, The Israel, Covenant, Davidic Covenant, National Covenants, Personal Covenants, and New Covenant.

The covenant (testament) I would like to discuss in this thread is the one of Matt. 26:28. It appears to me that a vast number on this board believe that Matth. 26:28 and Luke 22:20 is the fulfillment of the Covenant that is spoken of in Jeremiah 31:31:34 and mentioned in Hebrews 8:7-13. Also, many on this board believe that this new covenant (testament) is being fulfilled today. IMHO, nothing could be further from the truth. Further, the Church, the Body of Christ has no place in this "new covenant," whether it be the one in Matthew 26, and Luke 22, or the one mentioned in Jer. 31, and Heb. 8.

Jesus is speaking of His death in Matt. 26:28. It is only through FAITH in the death, burial and resurrection, of Christ that ones sins can be forgiven (remitted). He (Jesus) paid the sin debt or ALL mankind. Therefore every believer can say with Paul "I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live I live by the faith (faithfulness) of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me" (Gal. 2:20).

The blood that Jesus is speaking of in Matt. 26:28 is the blood He shed on the Cross of Calvary. The believer today is washed in that blood. It is not a symbolic washing in water that remits sins, but FAITH ALONE in the power of that shed blood.

The author in Hebrews is writeing to Jewish believer that were reared and taught all the aspects of the Law. The author writes "Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment" (Heb. 6:1, 2).

FAITH ALONE in the "death baptism" of Jesus Christ remits all sins. Therefore, I conclude, the rite water baptism is obsolete, and has no place in this dispensation of Grace.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord.

Mat 28:19-Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Mat 28:20-Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, [even] unto the end of the world. Amen.


--Jesus told the disciples to go ye and baptize. So the baptism here in Matthew's account of the great commission is administered by disciples, humans. Humans can only administer water baptism.

--the purpose of the human administered water baptism here is to make disciples.

--the Lord said He would be "with you alway, even unto the end of the world" for those that participate in this teaching and making disciples by water baptizing.

Therefore for discipes to exist today as they did 2000 years ago, teaching and water baptism must take place today. For disciples to exist 500 years in the future (if the world lasts) water baptism must be taking place. So this water baptism that makes disciples was designed by the Lord to last till the end of the world.

Also note that the Lord said "Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you".

So the Lord commanded the disciples to go teach and baptize making new disciples. Since the disciples are to do what the Lord commanded, then the disciples are to teach their new converts to go and teach and make disciples by baptizing, and these convert's new converts are to do the same. So this teaching and making disciples by baptizing is to be perpetuated from one to another until the end of the world. If it was not perpetuated then Christianity would die off.

So water baptism is as relevant today as it was some 2000 years ago at the time of Christ and the apostles and will remain relevant in making disciples until the end of the world. At the beginning of the church, "faith alone" did not make disciples nor does it make disciples today, "faith alone" is dead and not capable of doing anything.

 

[beloved57]

--the Lord said He would be "with you alway, even unto the end of the world" for those that participate in this teaching and making disciples by water baptizing.

This is not water baptism, but teaching doctrine..

 

[jmacvols]

This is not water baptism, but teaching doctrine..

What is your proof to back this statement up?

After Jesus gave the great commission to the disciples to go, teach and baptize, we see in the book of Acts the disciples doing this. Case in point, the eunuch. He was taught, he was baptized and became a disciple. In both Matthew's and Mark's account of the great commission, a distinct contrast is made between teaching and baptizing.

 

[dan p]

Hi Beloved57 , I just have to back up what Disy is saying .

1)Your Matt 28:20 you say that the diciples are backup , because it says in v20 , even unto the end of the world .

2) You should have looked up the word WORLD in your Greek bible . Why ?

3) That Greek word is AION which is translated world in the KJV AND IS A BAD TRANSLATION .

4) AION means AGE OR ERA , and NOT world , as most people think it means , like the end of the whole world as we know it .

5) The other word for world is KOSMOS which is talking about mankind


6) You will need relevant context .

7) By relevant context I mean that you are quoting what is being spoken to Israel , because the Body of Christ WAS NOT in EXISTEMCE YET .

 

[beloved57]

Hi Beloved57 , I just have to back up what Disy is saying .

1)Your Matt 28:20 you say that the diciples are backup , because it says in v20 , even unto the end of the world .

The end of the world was during the days of christ and His apostles..heb 9:

26For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself

so, technically if after one week , after his death, he was with them, he kept His promise of being with them and until the end of the world..

 

[heymikey80]

1)Your Matt 28:20 you say that the diciples are backup , because it says in v20 , even unto the end of the world .

2) You should have looked up the word WORLD in your Greek bible . Why ?

3) That Greek word is AION which is translated world in the KJV AND IS A BAD TRANSLATION .

4) AION means AGE OR ERA , and NOT world , as most people think it means , like the end of the whole world as we know it .

5) The other word for world is KOSMOS which is talking about mankind


6) You will need relevant context .

7) By relevant context I mean that you are quoting what is being spoken to Israel , because the Body of Christ WAS NOT in EXISTEMCE YET .

As to point 6, I have to mention -- the word "nations" -- "Gentiles" -- "ethnoi" -- is directly stated at Mt 28:19.

Diverting the point to the word "world" and rejecting the argument on that basis, doesn't exclude this word. And it's directly pursuant to Dispy's argument, and supports jmacvols' point.