Autonomy or coercion?

[ZiSunka]

Are we autonomous or does God sometimes force us to do things against our will?

 

[BBAS 64]

Are we autonomous or does God sometimes force us to do things against our will?

Good Day, Lambslove

Great question and it brings to the forefront the will of man as seen in contrast to the will of God. Whose will is primary and who is dependant and how is that understood?

You use the word force which I think carries to much weight. In order to use that word one mush assume that the creation has the abilty to stay the power and will of the creator, which I see as a non starter.

That does not mean I think that man lacks a free-will "the abilty to chose based on his strongest desire", but I do believe that God can change the will of man when it is in conflict with His by changing the strongest desire.

When God's will was for Jonha to go to the ninavites [sp], what was Jonha's will or stongest desire when he was first told?



God said go... He said no.
Jumpped on a boat going the other way.

Did God Say oh well he does not what to do my will and there is nothing in my power to see my will to the end? I will find some one else to do it.

I think not.

God exersized his authority and sovergin power upon all creation until Jonha was spit on the sand.

I do not know about you, But I think that his strongest desire was not to jump back in the water.. But to do as he was told which was God's will, even though he did not like it.

Peace to u,

Bill

 

[Vessel Of Mercy]

Are we autonomous or does God sometimes force us to do things against our will?

Neither. God is sovereign in his comprehensive providence and we all do things according to our own will. We cannot know God in our natural sinful state because we don't want to. The world is utterly opposed to God. It is only by being born again by the Spirit, not by the will of the flesh or will of man, but by the will of the Spirit, can sinners even love God. The Spirit humbles us before God and makes us able to recognize our need of mercy. Natural Man does not recognize this because he is dead in his sin. His pride and evil desires will not let him submit to God. The Holy Spirit regenerates our will.

Read John 3, 6:35-47

A quote from the godly Baptist preacher Charles Haddon Spurgeon:

"I do not come into this pulpit hoping that perhaps somebody will of his own free will return to Christ. My hope lies in another quarter. I hope that my Master will lay hold of some of them and say, "You are mine, and you shall be mine. I claim you for myself." My hope arises from the freeness of grace, and not from the freedom of the will."

Here is a good sermon by Spurgeon on the issue

Here is another excellent source of material for good Baptist theology:
Grace Online Library: Historic Baptist, Puritan and Reformed Resources

May God give you understanding and grow you in knowledge of the wonderful grace in Jesus Christ our Lord.

Ben

 

[Crazy Liz]

Are we autonomous or does God sometimes force us to do things against our will?

Of course our autonomy is limited. Things happen to us against our will all the time. I have some bandages right now as proof!

Both humans and circumstances cause our wills to be violated all the time. Who am I to say that none of these are God's will? I'm sure some are.

I don't know if this is what you were asking about, since I apparently interpreted the question quite differently than the two posters above. Do you want to be more specific, LL?

 

[Matthan]

BBAS 64, what a great answer. I believe you covered everything, and exactly as Scripture would lead you.

Matthan <J><

 

[ZiSunka]

Of course our autonomy is limited. Things happen to us against our will all the time. I have some bandages right now as proof!

Both humans and circumstances cause our wills to be violated all the time. Who am I to say that none of these are God's will? I'm sure some are.

I don't know if this is what you were asking about, since I apparently interpreted the question quite differently than the two posters above. Do you want to be more specific, LL?

I think you and BBAS 64 are on different but equally interesting tracks with this. BB is right, God does change people's desires all the time, but those are typically people who already know and generally desire to please God or do his will. And you are right, what choice we have is limited by a lot of factors, most of them being outside of us, things we can't control and things do happen to us that are clearly not our will, like your injury. Only sick people injure themselves, everyone else has it happen because of foolishness or outside factors like accident, illness, or violence.

I'll tell you where this question comes from. I was reading this ebook about islam, and the author made the point that people live in a struggle to have their own way, to be autonomous, but they don't realize their struggle is not with circumstances or other people or just plain misfortune, but their real struggle is with God, because everything that happens to us is the will of God. So if I order a vanilla ice cream cone , then drop it on the ground without every tasting a bite of it, that happened not because I am clumsy or because the ice cream wasn't pushed down in the cone far enough, it happened because God doesn't want me to eat that cone. If I sneeze, it is because God desires me to sneeze. If I fall in love, it is because it is the will of God for me at that time. It completely negates the idea that we have any freewill, because everything that happens is orchestrated by God.

My dad was a Calvinist, and he held much the same belief, that everything that happens in our lives is predetermined before we are even born, so I was wondering, is this an accurate belief, or is it bunk?

 

[Crazy Liz]

I think there is a subtle difference, both being at different points along a continuum. Or perhaps there are two concepts that should be mapped on two axes. I'm not exactly sure.

Anyway, on the one hand, there is the question of whether or not humans have free will. Calvinists fall very close to the deterministic (no free will) side of this continuum. I don't know exactly where Muslims fall on this continuum. ISTM, from what I have heard and read, that Muslims believe humans at least can control their attitudes. IOW, they may or may not have free will WRT what they do, but they do have at least enough freedom to either mentally resist or "go with the flow" and honor God's choices. Calvinists. OTOH, at least the more extreme ones, think God not only controls all human actions, but all human attitudes as well.

Then, there is the question of the things that "happen," like weather and other natural events, or accidents, or apparently random events like the flip of a coin. To what degree are they truly random, controlled by humans, or controlled by God? Islam and Calvinism would both say they are controlled by God. Other Christians and a number of other belief systems might say many of those that are not controlled by humans are simply random.

Variations would, of course, include believing in the existence or non-existence of non-human, non-divine beings with free will, capable of influencing humans or the happenings around them.

 

[Cajun Huguenot]

Are we autonomous or does God sometimes force us to do things against our will?

God does not force us to do things "against our will." But that fact does not mean that we must therefore be autonomos (self-law).

Sinful men sin freely and willingly; they also sin necessarily, because they are slaves to sin. Just because someone does something that their nature drives them to do, does not mean that they do so against their wills. They will to sin, because it is in the nature of fallen man to sin.

It is only when we are redeemed and our hearts are changed that we begin to will to do things to the glory of God. Remember all that is not done to God's glory is sin. We read in Scripture that even the "plowing of the wicked is sin." Something so mundane and "unsinful" as plowing a field is said to be sin when done by the wicked. Why? Because they are not doing this everyday common thing to the glory of God.

Coram Deo,
Kenith

 

[Vessel Of Mercy]

Amen, Cajun Huguenot.

Scripture does not assume man's free-will/autonomy. Scripture always assumes man's full responsibility for all choices made. The two are not reconcilible to our minds, it is the same with many mysteries of our sovereign Lord. Scripture is clear, though.

 

[ZiSunka]

I can remember the nuns in CCD telling me that we couldn't even lift a pencil unless it was the will of God.

The problem I have with that statement (well, I have many problems with it but let's just talk about this one for now) is that it would imply that everything we do has to be in the will of God or we wouldn't be able to do it. Yet I've known born-again Christians who have committed sins, even serious crimes. Is it then God's will that these crimes were committed, if they couldn't have done anything outside the will of God?

For instance, my first college roommate had to visit her father in prison because he shot the man who later became her stepfather after discovering that her mom was having an affair with this man. Was the act of the father shooting the other man an act of judgment from God or the act of a man insanely upset by his wife's betrayal? Was God using this man to judge and punish the offenders or was he acting on his own will?

 

[Vessel Of Mercy]

I can remember the nuns in CCD telling me that we couldn't even lift a pencil unless it was the will of God.

Strange for CCD! I was in that for about two years as a kid. It is my understanding that Roman Catholic theology depends on the doctrine of the autonomous choice of man, free from the will of God, except in certain points in history such as, Pharaoh, the crucifixion, etc.

The problem I have with that statement (well, I have many problems with it but let's just talk about this one for now) is that it would imply that everything we do has to be in the will of God or we wouldn't be able to do it. Yet I've known born-again Christians who have committed sins, even serious crimes. Is it then God's will that these crimes were committed, if they couldn't have done anything outside the will of God?

In one sense of God's will, yes, and in another sense, no. I know that sounds like a contradiction. When we encounter the will of God in Scripture it is clear that God has decreed all things that ever have and ever will happen. Also, we see things that come to pass that God does not will.

"In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according tot he counsel of his will." Eph. 1:11

"Your eyes saw my unformed substance; in your book were written, everyone of them, the days that were formed for me, when as yet there were none of them." Ps. 139:16

"Since [man's] days are determined, and the number of his months is with you, and you have appointed his limits that he cannot pass." Job 14:5

Paul says: God "had set me apart from before I was born." Gal 1:15

"I know, O Lord, that the way of man is not in himself, that it is not in man who walks to direct his steps." Prov. 16

"The plans of the mind belong to man, but the answer of the tongue is from the Lord." Prov. 16:1

"The Lord looks down from heaven; he sees all the children of man; from where he sits enthroned he looks out on all the inhabitants of the earth, he who fashions the hearts of them all and observes all their deeds." Ps. 33:13-15

God causes all believers "both to will and to work to his good pleasure." Phil. 2:13

It is clear though, as set forth in Scripture, that our choices are still real choices. No person makes any choice contrary to his/her own will. Do unbelievers hate sinning? No, they love it. Do believers find worshiping God to be drudgery? No, we love it and find our greatest joy in worship and doing all the will of God.

For instance, my first college roommate had to visit her father in prison because he shot the man who later became her stepfather after discovering that her mom was having an affair with this man. Was the act of the father shooting the other man an act of judgment from God or the act of a man insanely upset by his wife's betrayal? Was God using this man to judge and punish the offenders or was he acting on his own will?

Like I said before, people only do what they want to do. This man was acting in his own will. God may have had some obvious reason to use this man, such as judgment, but also, many of the things God does and the way he uses creation and people are a mystery. Ultimately, we don't know how God was to use this event in your roomates life. We do know, that "he works everything for good to those who love him" and "all things according to the counsel of his will."

"Have you not known? Have you not heard? The LORD is the everlasting God, the Creator of the ends of the earth. He does not faint or grow weary; his understanding is unsearchable." Isa. 40:28

"For God has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all. Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways! For who has known the mind of the Lord, or who has been his counselor?" Rom. 11:32-34


Unfortunately, there is much, much more on this subject than I have time to quote here. The issue of God's sovereignty is huge in Scripture and deals with everything else in Scripture. I must refer you many articles that have much information, scriptural exegesis, and many other thoughts on God's sovereignty and man's free-will in all aspects of man's life and God's plan of redemption throughout history. I sincerely apologize for not having the sufficient knowledge to treat this subject with proper handling to its proper depth. Please, if you are truly seeking the Lord's will and are not content to be ignorant of it in regard to these things, then search the Scriptures.

I must, therefore, refer you to this site:

http://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/topic/freewill.html

You will find, that through all the arguments from all perspectives, no position can stand against Scripture as that which was held by the early church and the Protestant Reformers.

Praying that you will be humbled before God to the destruction of all pride and the construction of all trust in him in whom, through whom, and to whom are all things.

Ben