Aussie Church Failing?

Well I don't know about you Koey, but near my house in Brissie, churches are popping up everywhere, and BIG ones at that. in about 7 yrs, our church has gone from 6 ppl to over 1,500 and it isnt stopping! Youth departments especially... we get between 150-200 ppl aged 9-17 rock up at our youth program on Friday nights in our youth centre.
so its all happening where I'm living!
Also, this year Planet Shakers, the largest youth conference in the southern hemisphere had record numbers.. like 15 000 or something... so revivals definately happening, or you just havent got it yet

yep i think the Church is growing aswell, my Church started with 4 people 6 years ago no we have around 130 people on our roll. (we are really limited by space at the moment) we are going to be starting a sunday night service, and we think that will increase the congregation greatly.

Sorry to be the fly in the ointment, but I don't think revival is happening and I'm with Koey, we have a low church attendance in this country. And it isn't improving by leaps and bounds. I'm not meaning to put down anyone's individual experience, if your church is growing then that is great, but I don't think those limited experiences are negating the backwards steps elsewhere.

I used to also go to a church who grew to 1500+, and was a youth leader of a 200+ youth group. It was built from a small church too. Problem is, a small church dynamic doesn't work with bigger numbers. People start falling through the cracks. Saying "I'm part of a 1500+ congregation church" eventually left me cynical, because no mention of the people who have left disgusted at the actions of the pastor or cliquiness of the congregation. When I visit there ocassionally now, there is ONE family in the entire church I know who isn't on the pastoral team that went there when I attended. To be honest, if the church had a shred of humility and honesty with the congregation, they would have 3000+ members. And the saddest part of it, those that leave most often also leave the church scene altogether. So saying numbers for growth is illusory. Not to say that this is always the case though.

Why is the Christian church still slipping in Australia? I see the reasons as fourfold:

1) Too materialistic - Australia suffers from every Western modern society's ailment, materialism. Many churches are becoming knitted in the the ethos and values of capitalist society. We see a preponderance of prosperity doctrine and self interested Christians in churches, and it's growing. Where is revival? Not in the US, Britain or Australia, traditionally all "Christian" nations, all rich, all without systemic religious persecution. It is in China, Bogota, and Africa where revival is occurring, the places with the poorest, most needy people, where much persecution is forced from above. Which leads to......

2) Lack of community - We all have cars, mobile phones, TV's, the Internet, our own houses, own jobs, all of which destroy community and create a new one in modern capitalism's likeness. Jesus said "Blessed are the poor in spirit", but the more I think about it, the more I wonder if the poor in general are blessed. The poor have community, the rich worry about getting more stuff. If there was a strong Mennonite or Amish community in Australia, I would drop uni and join it ASAP because the desire for community is so strong, and others have told me of the same feelings. Even non-Christians desire community. 99% of all pre-Vietnam war posters appealed to a sense of community or a threat to that community.

3) Too sold out to the world - Evangelism has mirrored politics in that now a fancy one-line slogan that seemingly demolishes all counter arguments can convert people. It does nothing of the sort, lines like "God said it, I believe it" is going to convert shallow people, and disenfranchise people who think it through even more from the church. The church is mirroring business in it's advertisement techniques and it's everyday practices. It's mirroring the media in that whatever gets the most ratings gets the coverage. It's sickening. But up til now, these problems have been Western church faults, not just problems with Australia. Until point 4.......

4) Apathy and Cynicism - These are virtually national traits. Churches try to force unimportant things, like church attendance and the taking up of collections, as though they are vital, and this is going to work against these almost institutionalised Australian national traits. Churches in Australia need to restructure their way of running the show back to a more traditional approach rather than authoritarian methods. If a church preaches the Word of God and strong community is present, I'm not going to be anywhere else, am I? Or I'm not going to hesitate to give more than a economically am able, am I? I have not been to a church in Australia that I've been able to honestly say it was better than "just OK". I'm not expecting a church to be perfect. I'm not expecting it to be large. I don't expect it to have programs. I don't expect the pastor to tell funny jokes from the pulpit. I want to belong to the community there and learn about the Word. And no church I've been to has been consistent in that.

Again, I'm not picking on any one individual or any one church here, and not every person or church in Australia is like that I'm sure. But this is a general view from someone who has "fallen through the cracks".

Injured Soldier

You reinforce my opinion on this... I love my church and I don't think we're that bad but nonetheless we have like the majority of Aussie churches, fallen down. And the big churches profess to be the answer, unfortunately it's not as simple as that, God lookes beyond numbers and sees the love, the care, the Christianity in ACTION. We need to grasp hold of this because then we won't be able to stop the world from wanting to get to church!! Many blessings!

Australia has never been a very religious nation

its just following low church attendence wich is happening all over the western world. the UK has a higher attendence of people to other religious organizations than in christian churches.

it might seem like things are taking off because of big churches popping up but it nearly always making other small churches dissapear.

The USA is one of the few western nations where church attendance is stable or in some areas growing.

Sorry, this isn't directly relevant, but since Guy Sebastian won Australian Idol, his church has trippled! and it was pretty damn big before.. like waaaay over 1000

yeah but what is the main reason for it trippling?? are they there to see Guy sing or there for God...
i know at a youth alive concert when Paulini sang, alot of the people there were there to see her sing.. up the front you could hear people going "hi paulinin!" etc etc and this was while she was singing....
and actually now that i think about it, i agree with injured soldier and the others.. very good posts.

Do you all really consider it a matter of the church "failing" as such. I mean, outside of abducting people and brainwashing them, it's not really in their control whether or not people attend.

marduke said:

yeah but what is the main reason for it trippling?? are they there to see Guy sing or there for God...
i know at a youth alive concert when Paulini sang, alot of the people there were there to see her sing.. up the front you could hear people going "hi paulinin!" etc etc and this was while she was singing....
and actually now that i think about it, i agree with injured soldier and the others.. very good posts.

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I'm not exactly sure as to the reason it's trippled, but still at least it's getting people in the House of God.
As for the Paulini thing, I was a bit taken aback when she got a louder roar from the ppl at the front than when they said "give a shout for Jesus"...
and yeh the posts have been very interesting and insightful, however being brought up in what seems to be "the perfect" church, I myself can't be as cynicle.

Good posts injured soldier and koey.

I just want to make a few points:

1) One of the key elements missing in many churches is seizing upon the new visiting person to the church. It is too easy I believe to be stuck in one's little own clique.. own comfort zone and not want to reach out to new people.

New people either .. rededicated christians or non christians etc need to be welcomed with love and enthusiasm. Then , engaged and encouraged to join the most sutaible small community group for him/her. Be it Youth group, cell group etc.

When people come to a new fellowship, I reckon it is the duty of the church to help them settle into a comfortable small group and the new member should not have to struggle to find out.

This is my feeling after trying to join a church in parramatta. I found one now btw

2) Koey made some good points. However I dont think there is need to have flashy things to attract ppl. I agree about moving from the old paradigms. However, I feel genuine community care groups along with solid bible teachings should form the cornerstone of churches. I guess all of us here are in agreement about it.

3) Lastly, there may be a kinda compromise in some churches where contemporary pop music with nice lighting has become the drawcard with no real emphasis on bible teaching. BTW, if the church has solid bible teaching then a good musical team with good lighting is great.. dont get me wrong!

The feeling that at least we getting the numbers because we compromised so that's good enough is just not what Jesus wants who clearly warned about spitting out the luke warm.


Thanks for reading.

marduke said:

yeah but what is the main reason for it trippling?? are they there to see Guy sing or there for God...
i know at a youth alive concert when Paulini sang, alot of the people there were there to see her sing.. up the front you could hear people going "hi paulinin!" etc etc and this was while she was singing....
and actually now that i think about it, i agree with injured soldier and the others.. very good posts.

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Agreed, marduke... I often wonder why some people go to the big churches... not wishing to cast aspertions on big church attendees because there are MANY MANY genuine folk out there who love the Lord and serve faithfully in those places... if your one of those people then I'm not talking about you, so please don't be offended...

But yes, I often wonder why some folk do go there... myself included at times... it's often "I wanna hear such and such" or "I wanna experience worship" or "Guy's there!" or whatever... what about "God's there!" and by that I'm not refering to these hugely physical manifestations of the Spirit, or whatever, I simply mean people going to church because the Lord is present with His people, and to be among other believers to encourage one another.

No matter what church you go to, I see little of that last point - encouragement of other believers. There will be some that do, and in defence of the big ones, the people GENERALLY (ie, not all but many nonetheless) are more upbeat, more passionate about life and therefore will encourage. We could learn a thing or two from them.

Long and the short is if we really think Australia's in revival, think again. I won't go so far to say the church is failing, but in terms of fulfilling the great commission, you bet we're failing. BUT that's no reason to be downtrodden and get all discouraged... there's work to do, and hey, there's you, me and God to get started!!! AMEN! Yes the church is failing here but we can start a revolution!!! Praise the Lord!

O BTW Jaegang, I 100% agree with your above post. We are surrounded by messages of tolerance, acceptance of absolutely anything and compromising. HOLD FAST CHURCH!!

Say you wouldn't have wandered into PCC by any chance would you? What's your name friend? And where are you fellowshipping now? Blessings, LW

WAHHOO passed the 300 posts mark!! Triple century! Retire hurt? Not on your life

just to add a different perspective and i knwow i wasnt in australia for that long. though in comparison with the Uk i found that christians i met in australia were more passionate for God and that there was less compromise. Though there might not be high church attendance everywhere - the are much more large churches in aus than in the UK. Also denominations other than anglican and catholic are pretty much unheard of I got a shock at 18 when i moved to a different town and found out that some people were actually happy in church and that other denominations existed, also i got a shock after spending all my life in anglican schools after coming to university i heard the gospel for the first time.
Also its almost unimaginable to think of a church the size of hillsong in the Uk - 15,000 people and people responding to the gospel every week.
Also from my experience at hillsong the love the people had there was like nothing else i experienced everyone goes completely out of their way too help.
Also i found people who i met on trains and in various places much more open to the gospel and just to listen. i founsd that people in aus were christian or they werent and that there was less middle ground than in the UK.

True Shout, it must be said that there are hungry people here... and credit where credit's due, the Hills guys love God, or most do anyhow, you can't question that. however while it's really good to be positive and encourage one another, I really think we are kidding ourselves if we think that this is revival... be encouraged but do not be satisfied, it's not getting the job done! But thank the Lord we serve a mighty, awesome saviour!!!

LivingWorship said:

True Shout, it must be said that there are hungry people here... and credit where credit's due, the Hills guys love God, or most do anyhow, you can't question that. however while it's really good to be positive and encourage one another, I really think we are kidding ourselves if we think that this is revival... be encouraged but do not be satisfied, it's not getting the job done! But thank the Lord we serve a mighty, awesome saviour!!!

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yeh exactly

Koey said:

Really good comments! It doesn't matter what size the plant is: Giant Red Gum or African Violet. The key is health, not size. Large churches can be healthy IF the cells are healthy. Like you said, solid Bible nourishment is a key as well as emphasis on living it out in relationship with God.

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And if a church is healthy then it will grow - because healthy organisms grow

because healthy organisms grow

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Not at all, healthy organisms that have not reached their capacity grow. To continue with this analogy you must consider whether or not christian churches in Australia have reached their fullest potential. I'm inclined to say they have, and I cannot forsee the situation "improving" to any great effect because the social climate just does not exist anymore.