Aus Vets Reject Airline Recognition

[JackRT]

I think that Canadian vets would have much the same attitude as the Australians.

 

[Occams Barber]

Oi. Be nice to people with South African accents!

I sincerely apologise to you and Quid. I know that you can't help your affliction. From now on I'll only pick on New Zealandish iccents. (the liss sid about thit tha bitter eh bro')

On the other hand, try saying in Australia that you don't feel there's anything particularly special about ANZAC day...

o I'd say we have a version of it, we just have our own particular taboos around what is and is not acceptable.

I think ANZAC Day is in danger of being turned into a Sacred Cow. Its mythical significance has increased with time. I have no problem with recognising the event but it seems to be
getting bigger than Ben Hur. Docu-dramas on Gallipoli or the Western Front have become a staple of the local film/TV industry.
OB

 

[Paidiske]

It's not an affliction. It's an indication that I grew up in a household with a rich linguistic heritage. So I'm just going to perch here feeling superior.

The government have deliberately pushed ANZAC day. I wrote an analysis of ANZAC as civil religion, which you can read here, if you're interested: Anzac as ‘civil religion’

 

[Occams Barber]

It's not an affliction. It's an indication that I grew up in a household with a rich linguistic heritage. So I'm just going to perch here feeling superior.

And you should be proud. After all God gave you 'special' vowels that He denied to the rest of us.

The government have deliberately pushed ANZAC day. I wrote an analysis of ANZAC as civil religion, which you can read here, if you're interested: Anzac as ‘civil religion’

I read your article - thanks.
I agree with most of what you've written.

Where I do get confused is the extent to which we have 'militaristic' values. On the one hand (as you pointed out) we've gone to almost every available war - usually trailing after the US. On the other hand I'm not conscious of the military as a significant factor in day to day life or at the top of mind. Military actions involving our troops are not that well reported or documentarised(?). It's as if we send these people off to do good deeds which, almost incidentally, involve a little death and destruction. Young people might march on ANZAC Day but I don't see them clamouring to join the military. Nor do I have any sense of a public veneration of military people or things.

It's as if we celebrate ANZAC Day as the day 'our people', not 'our soldiers', went out to help save the Empire. While the framework in which they operated (and still operate) was military I suspect we see them as people rather than military operatives. To some extent the ruggedly independent, anti-authoritarian image also runs counter to concepts of military discipline and hierarchy.

I remain confused.
OB

 

[Paidiske]

Those are good points. (Except the special vowels. I'm deliberately ignoring that).

I think on the one hand, our culture is not to publicly venerate anything much. BUT there is very little tolerance of public disagreement or critique of the military or their actions either.

And you're right; some of what is celebrated about the ANZACs is their more relaxed attitude to authority, compared to, say, the British. Perhaps we do see them as in the military but not of the military.

Food for thought.

 

[Occams Barber]

First off I would like to thank the people of Australia and New Zeeland to celebrate my birthday as ANZAC day.

I am a veteran in the USA and I wait my turn like everyone else, I get so sick of the special marketing addressed to “me” and “Thank you for your service”, which sometimes almost sounds like “Better you than me”.

That being said, I am off the get my free Veterans Day meal from Olive Garden…

Hello Arya - thanks for this - hope you enjoy(ed) your free meal.
I have a couple of questions you may (or may not) be able to help me with.

Based on your free meal comment and the 50% discount ad from @USincognito (post #4) it seems as if US vets may get access to some perks not available to the public at large. I've also seen comment suggesting that retiring US vets are not that well treated particularly related to physical/mental problems, counselling, employment prospects, general readjustment to society etc. I don't know if this is correct.

Q1. Do US vets usually suffer disadvantage when returning to civilian life?
Q2. Are any extra perks intended as;

a reward 'for your service' over and above the status quo
or
as compensation for any problems created by your service, i.e. to bring you up to the status quo?
​

Informed input from other people reading this is welcome.
OB

 

[Quid est Veritas?]

I read a few years back that many in the Australian leadership welcomed WWII, hoping for a Japanese invasion. They thought struggling and bleeding for the soil of Australia itself would create a new National Epic. Gallipoli is after all the story of a military fiasco, an utter defeat. When this never materialised, the memorialisation of the Kokoda Trail started as a substitute, an 'epic defence' of the homeland. It has never really caught on to the hoped-for extent, as far as I can see.

Without the personal history, the ability to point to local landmarks involved in some battle or 'fought-over' land, the military tradition is hard to form, I think. English identity was forged in the Hundred years war, that finally united Norman and Saxon. US identity in the War of Independance and to a lesser or more regional extent in their Civil War, Canadian in the War of 1812. Australia has never had this, its heroes seem more of the folk kind - such as bushrangers like Ned Kelly. It is similar to English South Africans, who have far less of a sense of historic identity than the Afrikaners, with our rich Boer War history. Makes sense that there would be less nationalistic militarism in a nation not built thereon, but on frontierdom and often involving people that opposed the authorities.

 

[Tanj]

I read a few years back that many in the Australian leadership welcomed WWII, hoping for a Japanese invasion. They thought struggling and bleeding for the soil of Australia itself would create a new National Epic.

I'd appreciate some evidence for that. It wouldn't surprise me.

Gallipoli is after all the story of a military fiasco, an utter defeat. When this never materialised, the memorialisation of the Kokoda Trail started as a substitute, an 'epic defence' of the homeland. It has never really caught on to the hoped-for extent, as far as I can see.

No, it didn't.

Without the personal history, the ability to point to local landmarks involved in some battle or 'fought-over' land, the military tradition is hard to form, I think. English identity was forged in the Hundred years war, that finally united Norman and Saxon. US identity in the War of Independance and to a lesser or more regional extent in their Civil War, Canadian in the War of 1812. Australia has never had this, its heroes seem more of the folk kind - such as bushrangers like Ned Kelly. It is similar to English South Africans, who have far less of a sense of historic identity than the Afrikaners, with our rich Boer War history. Makes sense that there would be less nationalistic militarism in a nation not built thereon, but on frontierdom and often involving people that opposed the authorities.

Australia was founded on a vote, not a war.

 

[Quid est Veritas?]

I'd appreciate some evidence for that. It wouldn't surprise me.

I'll look for the citation when I have time.

Australia was founded on a vote, not a war.

Yes, though superficially similar to Canada and South Africa, where different British possessions were federated together. With Canada it followed the war of 1812 and the dispute over the border in the west with the US, culminating in the 1867 act; and in South Africa as a way to both water-down and adhere to the provisions of the Treaty of Vereeniging, that ended the Second Anglo-Boer war. Australia had none of these external factors as such, and it was mostly geographic proximity. It is in this way similar to the attempt to federate all the British West Indies possessions that ended in failure, when Jamaica refused to help foot the bill for smaller islands; except that it survived. As far as I recall, federation wasn't very popular there, either.

 

[Trogdor the Burninator]

I read a few years back that many in the Australian leadership welcomed WWII, hoping for a Japanese invasion. They thought struggling and bleeding for the soil of Australia itself would create a new National Epic. Gallipoli is after all the story of a military fiasco, an utter defeat. When this never materialised, the memorialisation of the Kokoda Trail started as a substitute, an 'epic defence' of the homeland. It has never really caught on to the hoped-for extent, as far as I can see.

I've never heard that version, and it wouldn't seem to make much sense given that Australia's involvement in WW2 started more than 2 years before our first engagements with Japan.

There were certainly plans made to defend Australia if the Japanese invaded once Singapore had fallen and the Japanese were in Indonesia and New Guinea, but I don't think an invasion was ever wished for, given the overriding concern at the time was that Australia would be left isolated, and we simply didn't have the industrial capacity to manufacture enough war material to supply the defence force (despite that time giving rise to some indigenous weapons like the Boomerang fighter and the Owen gun)

 

[MyOwnSockPuppet]

Earlier this week Virgin Australia announced plans to recognise Australian veterans by giving them priority in boarding its flights along with onboard, public recognition and thanks.

Not the oddest one I've seen - Suvarnabhumi Airport in Thailand has priority seating for nursing mothers, pregnant women, the elderly, people with disabilities and monks.

 

[Occams Barber]

Not the oddest one I've seen - Suvarnabhumi Airport in Thailand has priority seating for nursing mothers, pregnant women, the elderly, people with disabilities and monks.

View attachment 244884

Thanks MOSP
Seems reasonable apart from the monks, although I'm guessing it's a respect thing. One difference is that this is about seating at the Airport. The Virgin proposal was to give veterans priority in boarding the plane and to then formally recognise their presence with an announcement over the plane's PA. This is similar to the custom on US planes.

I don't see the Suvarnabhumi priority seating as odd. I've seen similar notices on Sydney trains reserving certain easily accessible seats for the same elderly/disabled/pregnant etc. group (excluding monks).
OB

 

[Quid est Veritas?]

@Tanj @Trogdor the Burninator

So the claim was made by Eddie Ward, the minister for Labour under the Curtin government. Apparently a General Mackay drafted a plan in which all of Australia was abandoned to Japan above a line from Brisbane to Melbourne, with a scorched earth policy adopted for it; in the event of a Japanese invasion. The government decided not to adopt it, although this isn't clearly so as it was discussed with MacArthur though, but Ward got word of it. He then used it to attack the previous governments of Menzies and Fadden, of the United Australia Party and Country Party, that preceded the Labour government he was a member of. He accused them of treasonably and unnecessarily wanting to abandon most of Australia, for political and personal ends as partially outlined above. These claims apparently helped Labour win the 1943 election, but when Ward was pressed for evidence, he would say it was kept mum for security or that the necessary documents were removed. Under public pressure, Curtin created a Royal commission to investigate the claims, which found no grounds for it; though Ward continued to claim them and suggest ulterior hopes for Japanese invasion by members of the previous government. It originated as a slur by Labour of their political opponents, though oddly the plan itself was drafted under Curtin's aegis, not his predecessors.

The primary citations given for this episode is the papers of the Brisbane Line Commision under a Justice Lowe in the Australian National Archives; Paul Hasluck's The Government and the People, Vol II; and Eddie Ward in the Australian Dictionary of Biography.

 

[Paidiske]

A line from Brisbane to Melbourne?! So basically keep the south-east coast, lose everything else? No wonder it caused some ire!

 

[Tanj]

@Tanj @Trogdor the Burninator

So the claim was made by Eddie Ward, the minister for Labour under the Curtin government. Apparently a General Mackay drafted a plan in which all of Australia was abandoned to Japan above a line from Brisbane to Melbourne

Umm...that's a vertical line....

Otherwise, thanks for the detailed response.

 

[TLK Valentine]

Tall poppy syndrome - Wikipedia

I remember hearing a lecture from Joseph Campbell that as a culture, Australia was... not necessarily hero-phobic, but generally wary of "hero worship" in general, due in part to the British using the lure of heroism to wrangle Australian volunteers for military service and what not (Germany is similar, on account of Hitler filling the people's heads with stories of heroism and glory in order to promote Nazism)... fool me once, and all that.

Can any Aussies here speak to that?

 

[Paidiske]

I think there's some truth to that. We might have sporting heroes or celebrities who get a degree of hero worship, but on the whole I'd say our culture doesn't encourage it, and definitely doesn't encourage people to seek that sort of status.

 

[SimplyMe]

Thanks MOSP
Seems reasonable apart from the monks, although I'm guessing it's a respect thing. One difference is that this is about seating at the Airport. The Virgin proposal was to give veterans priority in boarding the plane and to then formally recognise their presence with an announcement over the plane's PA. This is similar to the custom on US planes.

I don't see the Suvarnabhumi priority seating as odd. I've seen similar notices on Sydney trains reserving certain easily accessible seats for the same elderly/disabled/pregnant etc. group (excluding monks).
OB

I might have missed something, since I don't fly a lot, but I'm not aware of a veterans seating priority. There is one for active military, though I haven't seen the airlines announce their presence on the plane (thought here could be individual pilots that have).

 

[Occams Barber]

Tall poppy syndrome - Wikipedia

I remember hearing a lecture from Joseph Campbell that as a culture, Australia was... not necessarily hero-phobic, but generally wary of "hero worship" in general, due in part to the British using the lure of heroism to wrangle Australian volunteers for military service and what not (Germany is similar, on account of Hitler filling the people's heads with stories of heroism and glory in order to promote Nazism)... fool me once, and all that.

Can any Aussies here speak to that?

Australia is a very egalitarian and fairly informal country. If I was introduced to our Prime Minister on the street I would not call him 'Sir' or 'Prime Minister' or 'PM' or 'Mr Morrison'. I'd call him Scott. It would be rare for me to call anyone Sir or Mister except in a fairly formal setting.

People who succeed, particularly with money or social status, can be seen as acting above themselves. Its probably OK to succeed but you'd better be modest about it. This is the dark side of egalitarianism where there is a reluctance to accept that someone is, in some sense, better than others.

I doubt that the Syndrome is related to British military recruitment. It's more likely a product of the 'ordinary' nature of our early settlers (convicts, free settlers, tradespeople). There has never been anything approaching an aristocracy in this country and the concept of 'better by birth' is anathema. Even farmer/graziers who managed to acquire large tracts of land and wealth were derisively referred to as the 'squattocracy', a reminder of their humble origins as squatters.
OB

 

[Occams Barber]

I might have missed something, since I don't fly a lot, but I'm not aware of a veterans seating priority. There is one for active military, though I haven't seen the airlines announce their presence on the plane (thought here could be individual pilots that have).

Hi SM

I don't have any firsthand experience but the articles linked in the OP mention that the Virgin idea is modelled on an American practice.
OB