Augustine; more or LESS (C)atholic?

[simonthezealot]

Guys here is my point, instead of trying to haphazardly put together his (Aug's) beliefs on transubstantiation I'll say this I am claiming that his view is incompatible with transubstantiation If you read what I have posted from his writings I think this is clear, maybe not open and shut...But the point here is Rome portrays him in a much different light as do you guys I am guessing!

And funny enough the same can be said for a number of areas of studies acknowledged by Augustine.

Augustines basic approach seems to be in terms of a distinction without separation between the sign and the thing signified, which fits well with the more high-church version of Reformed Eucharistic theology, namely anglican.

 

[Benedicta00]

AUGUSTINE

"For in the Catholic Church, not to speak of the purest wisdom, to the knowledge of which a few spiritual men attain in this life, so as to know it, in the scantiest measure, indeed, becuase they are but men, still without any uncertainty...The consent of peoples and nations keep me in Church, so does her authority, inaugerated by miracles, nourished by hope, enlarged by love, established by age. The SUCCESSION of priests keeps me, beginning from the very seat of the APOSTLE PETER, to whom the Lord, after his resurrection, gave it in charge to feed his sheep, down to the present EPISCOPATE...The epistle begins thus:--'Manicheus, an apostle of Jesus Christ, by the providence of God the Father. These are the wholesome words from the perennial and living fountain.' Now, if you please, patiently give heed to my inquiry. I do not beleive Manichues to be an apostle of Christ. Do not, I beg you, be enraged and begin to curse. For you know that it is my rule to beleive none of your statements without consideration. Therefore I ask, who is this Manicheus? You will reply, An Apostle of Christ. I do not beleive it. Now you are at a loss what to say or do; for you promised to give knowledge of truth, and here you are forcing me to beleive what I have no knowledge of. Perhaps you will read the gospel to me, and will attempt to find there a testimony to Manicheus. But should you meet with a person not yet beleiving in the gospel, how would you reply to him were he to say, I do not beleive? For MY PART, I should NOT BELEIVE the gospel except moved by the authority of the Catholic Church. So when those on whose authority I have consented to beleive in the gospel tell me not to beleive in Manicheus, how can I BUT CONSENT?"
C. Epis Mani 5,6

"Wherever this tradition comes from, we must believe that the Church has not believed in vain, even though the express authority of the canonical scriptures is not brought forward for it"
Letter 164 to Evodius of Uzalis

"To be sure, although on this matter, we cannot quote a clear example taken from the canonical Scriptures, at any rate, on this question, we are following the true thought of Scriptures when we observe what has appeared good to the universal Church which the authority of these same Scriptures recommends to you"
C. Cresconius I:33

"It is obvious; the faith allows it; the Catholic Church approves; it is true"Sermon 117:6

"If therefore, I am going to beleive things I do not know about, why should I not believe those things which are accepted by the common consent of learned and unlearned alike and are established by most weighty authority of all peoples?"
C. Letter called Fundamentals 14:18

"Will you, then, so love your error, into which you have fallen through adolescent overconfidence and human weakness, that you will seperate yourself from these leaders of Catholic unity and truth, from so many different parts of the world who are in agreement among themselves on so important a question, one in which the essence of the Christian religion involved..?" C. Julian 1:7,34

"The authority of our Scriptures, strenghtened by the consent of so may nations, and confirmed by the succession of the Apostles, bishops and councils, is against you"
C. Faustus 8:5

"No sensible person will go contrary to reason, no Christian will contradict the Scriptures, no lover of peace will go against the CHURCH"Trinitas 4,6,10

He was Catholic, Latin rite.

 

[Benedicta00]

Roma Locuta Est – Causa Finita Est

Rome has spoken, cased closed. -- St. Augustine

 

[Benedicta00]

"In the Catholic Church, there are many other things which most justly keep me in her bosom. The consent of peoples and nations keeps me in the Church; so does her authority, inaugurated by miracles, nourished by hope, enlarged by love, established by age. The succession of priests keeps me, beginning from the very seat of the Apostle Peter, to whom the Lord, after His resurrection, gave it in charge to feed His sheep (Jn 21:15-19), down to the present episcopate.

"And so, lastly, does the very name of Catholic, which, not without reason, amid so many heresies, the Church has thus retained; so that, though all heretics wish to be called Catholics, yet when a stranger asks where the Catholic Church meets, no heretic will venture to point to his own chapel or house.

"Such then in number and importance are the precious ties belonging to the Christian name which keep a believer in the Catholic Church, as it is right they should ... With you, where there is none of these things to attract or keep me... No one shall move me from the faith which binds my mind with ties so many and so strong to the Christian religion... For my part, I should not believe the gospel except as moved by the authority of the Catholic Church."
— St. Augustine (354–430): Against the Epistle of Manichaeus called Fundamental, chapter 4: Proofs of the Catholic Faith.

...

 

[simonthezealot]

Rome has spoken, cased closed. -- St. Augustine

Catholic apologist have sadly twisted his word to say this...It's not what he said Benedicta, take some time and check it out.
Or i'll get it for you, I think it lacks character at the very least to blindly throw out quotes as if they are fact, without first researching them.

 

[simonthezealot]

AUGUSTINE



He was Catholic, Latin rite.

While I'll admit the Donatist controversy brought out the churchman in Augustine, the Pelagian debate firmly placed his views on salvation outside Rome and inline with biblical Christianity (calvinism)

 

[PaladinValer]

Since Calvinism wasn't around however then, that is not possible.

Since it had to be "rediscovered" is enough to show that, if it were "true," then death had overcome the truth.

Therefore, it cannot be true.

 

[Benedicta00]

Yea, like I'm going to believe traditions of men 1530 years after the fact....

 

[simonthezealot]

Yea, like I'm going to believe traditions of men 1530 years after the fact....

Really Bene, what about those marian add ons that came in the 19th century? guess ya kinda shot yourself in the foot there!

 

[simonthezealot]

Since Calvinism wasn't around however then, that is not possible.

Ahh but scripture was, see the words "biblical Christianity" ?

 

[IamAdopted]

Yea, like I'm going to believe traditions of men 1530 years after the fact....

LOL OH kay

 

[jckstraw72]

ah but Calvin's unique and unprecedented interpretation of the Scriptures was not around aha

 

[BBAS 64]

Rome has spoken, cased closed. -- St. Augustine

Good Day, Benedicta00

Umm seems you have taken this out side the histotical reality.

Delivered on Jn 6:53 (416) ad

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]10. What then was said of the Jews, the same altogether do we see in these men now. "They have a zeal of God: I hear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge." What is, "not according to knowledge"? "For being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and wishing to establish their own, they have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God." My Brethren, share with me in my sorrow. When ye find such as these, do not hide them; be there no such misdirected mercy in you; by all means, when ye find such, hide them not. Convince the gainsayers, and those who resist, bring to us. For already have two councils on this question been sent to the Apostolic see; and rescripts also have come from thence. The question has been brought to an issue; would that their error may sometime be brought to an issue too! Therefore do we advise that they may take heed, we teach that they may be instructed, we pray that they may be changed. Let us turn to the Lord, etc. [/FONT]


The issue was the ruling of these two councils in Africa with reguards to(Pelagianism). The rulings from the council where sent and recived by Rome.

The issue was settled for those of Africa, and Augustine advised them at (Rome) to do the same (we advise). He evens says "we teach to instruct them" (Rome) and pray that they are changed.

We know it was some time before Rome heeded the words and instruction of Augustine and the councils which had settled the issue. The African's found the response of Rome unacceptable. The Lord did finally answer their prayers.


Professor at the Catholic University of America:

Augustine...could see through the entire charade. The pope had neglected to inquire rigorously into the Pelagian’s (Caelestius) understanding of grace; he had been content to accept superficial responses....A second letter from Zosimus to the Africans, Postquam a nobis written in September 417, did nothing to dispel Augustine’s worries. Pelagius had written to the pope once again, thoroughly convincing him of his orthodoxy, and Zosimus had ordered Pelagius’ letters to be read aloud at the papal court in order that everyone could be apprised of his orthodoxy. To the Africans Zosimus ebulliently exclaimed: ‘Would that some of you, dearest brethren, could have been present at the reading of the letters. What was the joy of the holy men who were present; what was the admiration of each of them! Some of them could scarcely restrain themselves from tears and weeping that such men of absolutely correct faith could have been suspected. Was there a single place in which the grace of God or his aid was omitted?’ At the end of his letter, however, the pope lambasted the Africans as ‘whirlwinds’ and ‘storms of the church’ and accused them of judging Pelagius and Caelestius wholly unfairly….In Quamuis patrum written in March 418, he deliberately flaunted his apostolic authority and claimed that no one should dispute his judgment.…"So great is our authority that no decision of ours can be subjected to review....Such is the authority of Peter and the venerable decrees of the church that all questions concerning human and divine laws, as well as all disciplinary matters, must be referred to Rome for ultimate resolution." This was high–flown language indeed and, as far as the Africans were concerned, totally unacceptable (J.E. Merdinger, Rome and the African Church in the Time of Augustine (New Haven: Yale University, 1997), pp. 128-129). ​

You have misunderstood the issues around the reason for the sermon.​

In Him,​

Bill​

 

[Benedicta00]

yea sure Bill, he never was under Rome's authority, never submitted to the pope. where is that rolling eyes icon...

 

[simonthezealot]

You have misunderstood the issues around the reason for the sermon.

yea sure Bill, he never was under Rome's authority, never submitted to the pope. where is that rolling eyes icon...

Truth is, this has been brought up to her in the past and she is willing to compromise truth in order to better her cause!

 

[BBAS 64]

yea sure Bill, he never was under Rome's authority, never submitted to the pope. where is that rolling eyes icon...

Good Day, Benedicta00

That icon you are looking for does not help when you presume a point based in silence.

Nor does it enable you to interact with the clear historical facts of the issues addressed and Augustine's writtings on the subject as a whole.

Something tells me you are unwilling to have an fair showing of the facts, but instead misuse the words of Augustine to make a assertion that is useless for your views of the matter.

In Him,

Bill

 

[Benedicta00]

well did he write this?...

"For in the Catholic Church, not to speak of the purest wisdom, to the knowledge of which a few spiritual men attain in this life, so as to know it, in the scantiest measure, indeed, becuase they are but men, still without any uncertainty...The consent of peoples and nations keep me in Church, so does her authority, inaugerated by miracles, nourished by hope, enlarged by love, established by age. The SUCCESSION of priests keeps me, beginning from the very seat of the APOSTLE PETER, to whom the Lord, after his resurrection, gave it in charge to feed his sheep, down to the present EPISCOPATE...

and this...

so does her authority, inaugurated by miracles, nourished by hope, enlarged by love, established by age. The succession of priests keeps me, beginning from the very seat of the Apostle Peter, to whom the Lord, after His resurrection, gave it in charge to feed His sheep (Jn 21:15-19), down to the present episcopate.

and this...

Such then in number and importance are the precious ties belonging to the Christian name which keep a believer in the Catholic Church, as it is right they should ... With you, where there is none of these things to attract or keep me... No one shall move me from the faith which binds my mind with ties so many and so strong to the Christian religion... For my part, I should not believe the gospel except as moved by the authority of the Catholic Church."

Then he was Catholic.

 

[simonthezealot]

Then he was Catholic.

His view on salvation differed, as I posted before!
Here is a repeat in case you missed it...
Augustine

Augustine disagreed with numerous aspects of the modern Roman Catholic view of salvation. The Roman Catholic priest Peter Stravinskas gives us some examples:
"Despite Augustine's tremendous influence, several of his opinions never gained acceptability in the Church. Among them, we can list the following theories: that God would condemn unbaptized infants to hell, simply because of the inheritance of original sin; that God would justly condemn adults who had never had the chance to be presented with the Gospel, again, due solely to original sin's hold on them; that some people would suffer eternal damnation for no other reason than God's lack of interest in saving them! As we reflect on these Augustinian positions, we must recall the fact that just because someone is a saint or even a doctor of the Church does not make his entire body of teaching acceptable; only the Church's Magisterium can decide what is and is not consonant with Her understanding of the truth of Christ."
The Catechism of the Catholic Church teaches:
"'The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day.'...'Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.' 'Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men.'" (841, 847-848)
But Augustine wrote:
"Before, however, all this had been accomplished, before the actual preaching of the gospel reaches the ends of all the earth-because there are some remote nations still (although it is said they are very few) to whom the preached gospel has not found its way,-what must human nature do, or what has it done-for it had either not heard that all this was to take place, or has not yet learnt that it was accomplished-but believe in God who made heaven and earth, by whom also it perceived by nature that it had been itself created, and lead a right life, and thus accomplish His will, uninstructed with any faith in the death and resurrection of Christ? Well, if this could have been done, or can still be done, then for my part I have to say what the apostle said in regard to the law: 'Then Christ died in vain.' For if he said this about the law, which only the nation of the Jews received, how much more justly may it be said of the law of nature, which the whole human race has received, 'If righteousness come by nature, then Christ died in vain.' If, however, Christ did not die in vain, then human nature cannot by any means be justified and redeemed from God's most righteous wrath-in a word, from punishment-except by faith and the sacrament of the blood of Christ....Whence they, who are not liberated through grace, either because they are not yet able to hear, or because they are unwilling to obey; or again because they did not receive, at the time when they were unable on account of youth to hear, that bath of regeneration, which they might have received and through which they might have been saved, are indeed justly condemned; because they are not without sin, either that which they have derived from their birth, or that which they have added from their own misconduct. 'For all have sinned'-whether in Adam or in themselves-'and come short of the glory of God.'" (On Nature and Grace, Against Pelagius, 2, 4)
"no one is delivered from the condemnation which was incurred through Adam except through the faith of Jesus Christ, and yet from this condemnation they shall not deliver themselves who shall be able to say that they have not heard the gospel of Christ" (On Rebuke and Grace, 11)
The Anglican historian J.N.D. Kelly notes that Augustine was also among those who believed that there could be only one penance in a lifetime for some sins (Early Christian Doctrines [San Francisco, California: HarperCollins Publishers, 1978], p. 438).

 

[simonthezealot]

Here are some examples of what Augustine wrote on the subject, in contrast to the Catechism of the Catholic Church (1283) telling us to pray for the salvation of unbaptized infants:
"Now in which of these classes must we place infants--amongst those who believe on the Son, or amongst those who believe not the Son? In neither, say some, because, as they are not yet able to believe, so must they not be deemed unbelievers. This, however, the rule of the Church does not indicate, for it joins baptized infants to the number of the faithful. Now if they who are baptized are, by virtue of the excellence and administration of so great a sacrament, nevertheless reckoned in the number of the faithful, although by their own heart and mouth they do not literally perform what appertains to the action of faith and confession; surely they who have lacked the sacrament must be classed amongst those who do not believe on the Son, and therefore, if they shall depart this life without this grace, they will have to encounter what is written concerning such--they shall not have life, but the wrath of God abideth on them....So that infants, unless they pass into the number of believers through the sacrament which was divinely instituted for this purpose, will undoubtedly remain in this darkness [of sin]." (On the Merits and Forgiveness of Sins, and on the Baptism of Infants, 1:28)
"And neither the first death, which takes place when the soul is compelled to leave the body, nor the second death, which takes place when the soul is not permitted to leave the suffering body, would have been inflicted on man had no one sinned. And, of course, the mildest punishment of all will fall upon those who have added no actual sin [infants], to the original sin they brought with them; and as for the rest who have added such actual sins, the punishment of each will be the more tolerable in the next world, according as his iniquity has been less in this world. Thus, when reprobate angels and men are left to endure everlasting punishment, the saints shall know more fully the benefits they have received by grace." (The Enchiridion, 93-94)

 

[Kristos]

There are those who argue that Saint Augustine wrote a number of things inconsistent with the consensus of the Fathers, especially with regard to sin and human guilt before God and the nature of Grace. This is partly because distortions and overstatements of certain among his theological precepts by Medieval and Reformation thinkers have been unfairly attributed to the Saint himself. In fact, though, one would be hard-pressed to find in the writings of St. Augustine evidence of an intentional distortion of the Church’s teachings or signs of tenacious resistance to correction by his contemporaries. Pope Vigilius in reconciling himself to the decisions of the Fifth Œcumenical Synod, invoked the memory, among "...our Fathers," of the "blessed Augustine" for his willingness to retract and correct various among his "writings" and "sayings" ("Decretal Letter," The Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers, 2nd series, Vol. XIV). Rather, St. Augustine’s works are marked by profound personal piety, a spirit of contrition, and a relentless deference to the teaching authority of the Church: traits of spiritual enlightenment.