Augustine, Luther and Calvin

[drstevej]

Jesus died on the cross so that we can be reconciled to God, to have forgiveness of sins without anything but faith that we are forgiven.

We have to obey Jesus.

Harmonize these two statements.

 

[THIS]

[FONT=&quot]Jesus died on the cross so that we can be reconciled to God, to have forgiveness of sins without anything but faith that we are forgiven.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]We have to obey Jesus.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Harmonize these two statements.

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Jesus saves us all on his own; however, Jesus chooses those he saves. Whom does Jesus choose to save? He tells us who those people are. [/FONT]

 

[THIS]

The works no one has to do anymore are circumcision, the adherence to the dietary laws, the observance to special days, the various external washings, and the sacrifice of animals.

Those works are the works the Jews used to have to do to clean themselves, to justify themselves just to worship God in the temple.

Just because we do not have to do those works anymore, it does not mean we do not have to obey God anymore.

Through faith in Jesus’ blood, we are cleaned and justified before God, and we become the temple of the Living God.

 

[BigChrisfilm]

Without the shedding of blood, there is no forgiveness of sins.

After we obey Jesus, we become the temple of the living God.

We are reconciled to God, and have the Holy Spirit as our Helper, our Comforter.


I can give you scripture for everything that I say. If you do not recognize what I say as scripture, just ask for the scripture reference.

1 John 1:8 ESV

If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

 

[VolRaider]

[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]With all due respect, to your grandmother, even parents to a son or daughter wanting to become a priest or a nun to the Catholic denomination would be proud. It does not mean it is right.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Non-denominational churches are not much different than the denominational ones, they have many false doctrines too.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]You told me some history about yourself, and you prove what I said by what you said.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]You too merely went to school and followed a choice denomination’s teachings, and have the error of men who made false doctrines.[/FONT]


[FONT=&quot]You have not been listening very well to what I have been saying. Since when is studying the Bible thee way to find God’s Truth?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]We have to get Jesus’ teachings from the Bible---and do exactly what he says---THEN we will get understanding. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Understanding comes AFTER obedience.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]God says to seek Him, and we will find Him.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]We seek Him by getting Jesus' teachings in the written Word.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]We find Him by obeying Jesus' teachings.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]God reveals Truth to us after we obey.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]See Psalm 119:100; Proverbs 3:32; Proverbs 3:5-6; John 14:21; Philippians 4:9; Luke 11:28; John 7:17; John 8:30-32; John 13:17.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Once a person actually does exactly as Jesus says, they have broken the barrier that keeps all away from God; they have turned from sin and disobedience, to being a person after God’s own heart. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]I tell you, once a person starts doing exactly as Jesus says, there is no way that God will not bless them beyond measure, and that they will teach others to do likewise.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]They rightly went against many of the Catholic’s false doctrines, yet Luther did not go far enough, he still preached falseness that he learned from the Catholic denomination, such as infant baptism and the leaders turning wine and bread into the real flesh and blood of Jesus. Calvin stopped doing many of the false doctrines from the Catholic denomination, and then became a leader in a major false doctrine called Calvinism.[/FONT]

You realize the Orthodox also had the same views of infant baptism and the Real Presence as Catholics, do you? And that most churches today believe in both ( at least some form of the Real Presence)?

 

[lesliedellow]

I spent many years trying to tell myself that the many references to predestination in the Bible didn't mean what they said, but finally gave up the attempt.

 

[lesliedellow]

You realize the Orthodox also had the same views of infant baptism and the Real Presence as Catholics, do you? And that most churches today believe in both ( at least some form of the Real Presence)?

I have encountered THIS before. He would like you to know that he is the one true Christian, and the rest of us are dupes who have fallen for false teaching.

 

[hedrick]

Connecting Augustine, Luther and Calvin certainly seems right. Divorcing them from Arminius and other Arminians is a bit misleading, since Arminius accepted many of the key Augustinian ideas.

The Eastern Church is the major historical tradition that's independent of Augustine. However the anabaptists are to some extent as well. They are key players in modern Protestant attempts to reassess theology. Modern mainline theology is also tending to be wary of Augustine. For us it's a combination of concerns about his attitudes towards sexuality, his willingness (late in his life) to use compulsion, and concerns that the combination of original sin and predestination is a misreading of Paul. This, of course, is a result of our acceptance of critical scholarship on Scripture, including specifically historical Jesus scholarship and at least some elements of the New Perspective on Paul. (While I tend to refer to these modern forms of scholarship, note that recognizably mainline writings go back at least to the early 19th Cent.) In some areas I find myself agreeing more with Orthodox theology than traditional Reformed theology.

In my view, Luther and Calvin were responsible for major progress. But it's unreasonable to expect one generation to completely reassess all of theology, particularly when they're fighting for their existence and in some areas their lives.

 

[Albion]

In my view, Luther and Calvin were responsible for major progress. But it's unreasonable to expect one generation to completely reassess all of theology, particularly when they're fighting for their existence and in some areas their lives.

I think that's right. We don't expect Edison to have invented the Smartphone or Newton to have split the atom--not in order to have been notable for that which they did. Yet when it comes to Luther or Calvin, we somehow think they had to have solved everything that was wrong with the Western Church of their time...or else they were just dupes or halfhearted. It's ridiculous.