Augustine, Calvin, Arminius, Molin...?

[GoldenKingGaze]

What is the spread of teaching on predestiny? Where do church fellows rest?

There was Augustine, why would you hold to his teachings?

And with Luther's freedom there was Calvin, and Arminius. I have heard of Molinism. What do church fellows think on these things?

What online sources do you draw on?

What difference do your leanings make?

 

[St_Worm2]

From the Reformed/Calvinist perspective, this short (free online) teaching series by Dr. R C Sproul is the place to start IMHO: Chosen by God by R.C. Sproul

You can also watch it for free as an Amazon Prime member. Just go to Amazon Prime, search "Sproul", and you'll find it there.

His book by the same name is even more detailed, but you'll have to buy it (I read it years ago and finished it before putting it down): Chosen by God

--David

 

[Andrewn]

What is the spread of teaching on predestiny? Where do church fellows rest? There was Augustine, why would you hold to his teachings?

In the article about Predestination, here is some of what the Catholic Encyclopedia says:

"It is just as difficult to find in the writings of the Fathers a solid argument for an absolute predestination. The only one who might be cited with some semblance of truth is St. Augustine, who stands, however, almost alone among his predecessors and successors. Not even his most faithful pupils, Prosper and Fulgentius, followed their master in all his exaggerations. But a problem so deep and mysterious, which does not belong to the substance of Faith and which, to use the expression of Pope Celestine I (d. 432), is concerned with profundiores difficilioresque partes incurrentium quæstionum (cf. Denz., n. 142), cannot be decided on the sole authority of Augustine. Moreover, the true opinion of the African doctor is a matter of dispute even among the best authorities, so that all parties claim him for their conflicting views."

CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Predestination

And in the article titled "Predestinarianism," it says:

"Predestinarianism is a heresy not unfrequently met with in the course of the centuries which reduces the eternal salvation of the elect as well as the eternal damnation of the reprobate to one cause alone, namely to the sovereign will of God, and thereby excludes the free co-operation of man as a secondary factor in bringing about a happy or unhappy future in the life to come."

CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Predestinarianism

Even if Augustine really believed in Predestination, which is debatable, both Roman Catholics, Greek Orthodox, and Arminian Protestants have always rejected this heresy.

I finf Molin's views really interesting and will be commenting on those later.

 

[fhansen]

What is the spread of teaching on predestiny? Where do church fellows rest?

There was Augustine, why would you hold to his teachings?

And with Luther's freedom there was Calvin, and Arminius. I have heard of Molinism. What do church fellows think on these things?

What online sources do you draw on?

What difference do your leanings make?

As far as the church goes historically, it never came down on the side of strict determinism in regard to salvation, let alone teaching double predestination. The will of man is never totally passive in that, while man cannot possibly save himself, he still retains the freedom and possibility to say “no” to salvation. Grace is always resistible IOW.

Augustine battled Pelagianism so many of his writings heavily emphasize the absolute necessity of grace while other writings of his show his belief that man can still refuse Gods overtures. It might be said that Aquinas also leaned more strongly towards a deterministic view while Molina sought to preserve the role of man’s will by incorporating man’s choices and even God’s knowledge of all possible choices of any particular individual in any given situation.

The church for its part taught that God, being omniscient and existing outside of time, foreknows our choices and so “predestines” us accordingly, rather than teaching a radically strict deterministic model as Calvin would later teach. Then Arminius, from my understanding, sought to preserve the role of man's will to a limited degree, much in line with historic church teachings.

I’d suggest reading the canons of the 2nd Council of Orange, heavily influenced by Augustine’s teachings a century earlier, to see how the church viewed this matter, making sure to read through the Conclusion at the end.

 

[5thKingdom]

What is the spread of teaching on predestiny? Where do church fellows rest? There was Augustine, why would you hold to his teachings? And with Luther's freedom there was Calvin, and Arminius. I have heard of Molinism. What do church fellows think on these things? What online sources do you draw on?

Real saints (those "indwelt" with the Holy Spirit)
have no need for "online sources" because we have
(wait for it....) the BIBLE that tells us everything we need
to know and we have the Holy Spirit that teaches us what
is truth and what is heresy.


1Jn 2:27
But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you,
and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same
anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie,
and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.


So the question becomes, WHY do some men follow a Gospel
of monergism (as Calvin taught) and other men follow the
heresy of synergism (as Arminus taught)?


And the answer is obvious: The Christian church consists
of BOTH saved "wheat" sown by God and destined to eternal
life (these "children of God" are taught by God) and the church
also consists of unsaved "tares" sown by Satan and destined to
the same eternal fire prepared for Satan and his demons
(these "children of Satan" follow false doctrines).


When the Lord said "you shall know them by their fruit" He was
talking about BOTH their behavior AND their doctrines... saints
do not follow heretical doctrines - but the unsaved "tares" will.


That is why God COMMANDS the elders of the church to
(a) identify those with "fruit" of the unsaved (behavior/doctrines)
(b) rebuke them for their sinful behavior and/or doctrines and
(c) expel them from the church if they do not repent.


Now, to apply this to your question:
Church elders seeing members believing heresies of Arminianism
(a) rebuke those people and (b) expel them from the church if
they do not repent of those heresies... since their "fruit" exposes
them as being unsaved "tares" and NOT saved "wheat".


Of course, if you even KNOW about Calvinism and Arminianism
you would also know that Arminianism was declared as heresy
long ago - and those teaching that heresy were NOT ACCEPTED
in the faithful churches.


The fact that we are at the "time-of-the-end" [Dan 12:8-10],
when the vast majority of "Christians" are unsaved "tares",
does not change the (Biblical) fact that real saints do not
follow heresies. Real saints have the "indwelling" Spirit
that teaches them to discern false doctrines.


Now, this is very confusing to the unsaved "tares" who do not
have the "indwelling" Holy Spirit to teach them truth from error.
But that is just the way God has designed His salvation plan.
Jesus was very clear that some men were NEVER MEANT to
"perceive" or "understand" or "be converted" or to have their
"sins forgiven". But unsaved "tares" reject the Words of Christ,
because they want a different "gospel" (being "children of Satan")


Mar 4:11
And he said unto them [the disciples], Unto you [the elect]
IT IS GIVEN to know the MYSTERY of the Kingdom of God:
but unto them that are without [all the unsaved], all these
things [all these Biblical Truths] are done in parables:

Mar 4:12
That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing
they may hear, and not understand; LEST AT ANY TIME they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.


Yes, it is true that JESUS taught that some were NEVER MEANT
to be saved (to have their sins forgiven). Yes, it is true the Bible
teaches that some men were CREATED to be "vessels of mercy"
(saved) and others were CREATED to be "vessels of destruction"
(unsaved)... but unsaved "tares" do not want to accept this truth.


So you have the MAJORITY of the church following a false "gospel"
of synergism, which is the BROAD WAY that leads most Christians
into destruction. And you have a MINORITY of the church following
the True Gospel of monergism, which is the narrow way that leads
to eternal life - and FEW Christians are able to find it.


Now, some men (unsaved "tares") think they can find Truth
from the teachings of MAN (Calvin or Arminus) when the BIBLE
teaches saved "wheat" are taught Biblical truth by the Holy Spirit.


And so, today (as it always was) you have the "elect" following
the True Gospel of monergism and the unsaved "tares" following
the heresies of Satan in a synergistic "gospel". The "elect" know
that some men were NEVER MEANT to have their sins forgiven
while the unsaved "tares" pretend salvation is a "free offer" to
all men and NOT limited to those God "chose" before the world
began to be part of "His sheep".


1Jn 4:6
We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us;
he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we
the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.


Bottom Line:
The teachings of Calvin were NOT his teachings, they were the
teachings of Christ... some 1500 years before Calvin was born.
The saved "wheat" understand this Truth while all of the unsaved
"tares" pretend "Reformed theology" was invented by Calvin.


Any man who refuses to accept the Biblical Truth that some men
were NEVER MEANT to be saved... that God CREATED some to
be "vessels of mercy" and others to be "vessels of destruction"
are showing the "fruit" of not having the "indwelling" Holy Spirit
that teaches them Truth and allows them to discern heresy.


Real saints DO NOT FOLLOW heresies... they have good "fruit".
Unsaved "tares" follow heresies... they are exposed by their
rotten "fruit".


Anyone with the "indwelling" Holy Spirit understands this...
those without the Spirit cannot "perceive" and cannot "understand"
and cannot "be converted" and cannot have their "sins forgiven"...
so they run to-and-fro looking for online sources of Truth,
when the real saints only need to read the Bible.


BTW.... Jesus did not PAY for the sins of those who could not
have their "sins forgiven"... so we (saints) know that the heresy
of universal atonement contradicts Scripture. Those who pretend
that "all men" includes MORE than all the "elect" are showing the
"fruit" of unsaved "tares". Those who think "the world" includes
MORE than both Jew and Gentile (Jew + Gentile = "the world")
are only showing the "fruit" of not discerning Truth from heresy.

.

 

[5thKingdom]

The church for its part taught that God, being omniscient and existing outside of time, foreknows our choices...

It is true that false churches taught God "elects" people based
on knowing what they would chose. But the Bible is very clear
that is heresy. God "chose" or "elected" those who would be
"His sheep" based ONLY on His Own Good Pleasure... and NOT
on the will or actions of men.


Unfortunately, unsaved "tares" cannot accept this Biblical
Truth because they were NEVER MEANT to "perceive" or
"understand" or "be converted" or have their "sins forgiven".
But this is clearly taught in Scripture for those with ears
to hear.


Eph 1:4-5
According as he hath chosen us in him before the
foundation of the world, that we should be holy and
without blame before him in love: Having predestinated
us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself,
according to the good pleasure of his will,


Rom 9:16
So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth,
but of God that sheweth mercy.


Joh 1:13
Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh,
nor of the will of man, but of God.



Bottom Line:
Anybody who does not understand that some men were
NEVER MEANT to be saved (have their sins forgiven) are
showing the "fruit" of being an unsaved by their heresy.


Anyone who does not ACCEPT the Biblical fact that God
CREATED some men to be "vessels of mercy" (saved)
and others to be "vessels of destruction" (unsaved) are
only showing the "fruit" of being unsaved by their heresy.


Unsaved men have taught heresy from the days of the Apostles.
To point to these heresies as a "proof" of what the Gospel says
is nonsensical. To say "the church" taught these heresies is less
than honest when "the church" declared these false doctrines to
be heretical hundreds of years ago.


It was ALWAYS a major PART of the Gospel that unsaved "tares"
would infiltrate the churches and the "leaven" of their false doctrines
would corrupt the churches. To point to these false doctrines as some
kind of "proof" of Biblical Truth only demonstrates the "fruit" of not
having an "indwelling" spirit that allows real saints to discern Truth
from heresy. To PRETEND "the church" taught a synergistic heresy
is to (intentionally) tell a half-truth (a lie) because only apostate
churches taught such heresy.


.

 

[Andrewn]

Of course, if you even KNOW about Calvinism and Arminianism
you would also know that Arminianism was declared as heresy
long ago - and those teaching that heresy were NOT ACCEPTED
in the faithful churches.

Perhaps Arminianism was declared a heresy by Calvinists .

But Calvinism was declared a heresy by the whole Church: Greek Orthodox, Roman Catholics, and Arminian Protestants.

 

[5thKingdom]

Perhaps Arminianism was declared a heresy by Calvinists . But Calvinism was declared a heresy by the whole Church: Greek Orthodox, Roman Catholics, and Arminian Protestants.

When you say "the whole church" are you talking about the people
who taught heresy, sold indulgences and molested little boys?

Of course the "whole church" would include those teaching the
"Reformed Gospel". You embarrass yourself when you pretend
otherwise.

If you do not understand that a major PART of the Gospel was
the "church" would be infiltrated by unsaved "tares" (sown by
Satan), and the "leaven" of their false doctrines would corrupt
"the church"... then you know nothing of the Gospel of Jesus.

If you do not understand the term "the church" can represent
either (a) all the saved "wheat" who are the eternal church or
(b) both the saved "wheat" and the unsaved "tares", sown by
Satan, who are the corporate and the visible temporal "church",
then you know nothing about the Gospel of the Bible.

Obviously, you can not offer an informed opinion on "the church"
when you cannot even DEFINE the term. How can you expect
to be taken seriously when you cannot DEFINE the terms you
pretend to explain? Your "fruit" shows that you are not serious.
Remember, Jesus (not Calvin) said you are known by your "fruit".

BTW, I notice that you chose to completely ignore everything
said (in the Bible and repeated in my post) about how those
in the eternal "church" do not need to look to MEN for the
Truth of Scripture because we have an "indwelling" Spirit that
teaches us to discern Gospel Truth from the heresy of men
corrupting the temporal "church" (in fulfillment of Scripture).

Look, I will make this very easy for you. Not only did the
Lord Jesus Christ teach (1500 years before Calvin was born)
that the temporal visible and corporate "church" would be
corrupted by unsaved "tares" making it "Babylon the Great",
(which includes all false churches in Satan's spiritual Kingdom),
but the Lord also taught (1500 years before Calvin was born)
that some men were NEVER MEANT to be saved because they
were not GIVEN the ability to "perceive" or "understand" or to
"be converted" or to have their "sins forgiven" [Mark 4:11-12]

Since your "gospel" teaches the opposite of the Words of Christ,
you need not worry about Calvin or Augustine or Arminius since
your gospel contradicts the very Words of Christ. You cannot ever
HARMONIZE your gospel with all Scripture - so pointing to the work
of (any) man/men is simply a deflationary tactic you MUST employ
in order to protect your "gospel" from immediate destruction by
its contradictions with Scripture.

This is how it has always been (since the days of the Apostles)
and this is how it will be until the Lord Appears in Glory. You
would know this if your "gospel" actually represented what the
Scripture reveals. For this is EXACTLY what the Bible reveals.

So, there are TWO "churches" on earth... good luck trying to
find the True Church by reading the work of any man, while
rejecting and intentionally ignoring the clear Words of Christ.

When you can offer a "gospel" that teaches some men, even
some "Christians" were NEVER MEANT to be saved (to have
their "sins forgiven") then get back to me and I will be able to
take you seriously.

Jim

PS, if you want to read the Gospel Truth about the historical
fulfillment of "Babylon the Great", then you can do so here:
https://www.5thkingdomofheaven.com/chapter-7

.

 

[fhansen]

It is true that false churches taught God "elects" people based
on knowing what they would chose. But the Bible is very clear
that is heresy. God "chose" or "elected" those who would be
"His sheep" based ONLY on His Own Good Pleasure... and NOT
on the will or actions of men.


Unfortunately, unsaved "tares" cannot accept this Biblical
Truth because they were NEVER MEANT to "perceive" or
"understand" or "be converted" or have their "sins forgiven".
But this is clearly taught in Scripture for those with ears
to hear.


Eph 1:4-5
According as he hath chosen us in him before the
foundation of the world, that we should be holy and
without blame before him in love: Having predestinated
us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself,
according to the good pleasure of his will,


Rom 9:16
So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth,
but of God that sheweth mercy.


Joh 1:13
Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh,
nor of the will of man, but of God.



Bottom Line:
Anybody who does not understand that some men were
NEVER MEANT to be saved (have their sins forgiven) are
showing the "fruit" of being an unsaved by their heresy.


Anyone who does not ACCEPT the Biblical fact that God
CREATED some men to be "vessels of mercy" (saved)
and others to be "vessels of destruction" (unsaved) are
only showing the "fruit" of being unsaved by their heresy.


Unsaved men have taught heresy from the days of the Apostles.
To point to these heresies as a "proof" of what the Gospel says
is nonsensical. To say "the church" taught these heresies is less
than honest when "the church" declared these false doctrines to
be heretical hundreds of years ago.


It was ALWAYS a major PART of the Gospel that unsaved "tares"
would infiltrate the churches and the "leaven" of their false doctrines
would corrupt the churches. To point to these false doctrines as some
kind of "proof" of Biblical Truth only demonstrates the "fruit" of not
having an "indwelling" spirit that allows real saints to discern Truth
from heresy. To PRETEND "the church" taught a synergistic heresy
is to (intentionally) tell a half-truth (a lie) because only apostate
churches taught such heresy.


.

Lots of talk, with some faulty understanding. No one can predict their own perseverance, which is why believers are warned and instructed to, among other things, persevere. God, alone, knows with 100% certainty whose names are written in the Book of Life and whose are not. Yes, the elect are the elect. He knows who they are, whether that might be due to His foreknowledge or due to compete determinism.

But the ancient churches in the east and west from the beginning until now have come close while never making the erroneous jump that Calvin et al made with their novel beliefs, with those older churches refusing to remove man's will from the equation altogether. None of the bible really makes any sense anyway with certain aspects of Reformed theology. God may as well have prevented Adam from sinning to begin with if His plan was to override or overlook man's freedom anyway, and control everything Himself. But did God want Adam to disobey and sin by eating of the fruit when He expressly forbid Adam to do so? And did Jesus instruct us to pray that God's will be done on earth as it is in heaven because God's will is always necessarily done-or because it's not- because He values man's freedom to choose rightly even as that allows for the possibility of man failing to do so?

Much evil and suffering could've been avoided if God simply stocked heaven with the elect and hell with the rest to begin with if that was His ultimate intention anyway. But instead God, knowing the beginning from the end, didn't abandon man but used the Fall and the sin/evil that resulted for His purposes, patiently preparing- educating and cultivating humanity through a chosen people- to finally bring man to the point where he might be ready to accept Him, to leave the darkness and embrace the light when He came calling in the Person of Jesus Christ. Even that incarnation, coming as a humble servant in human flesh, highlights the fact hat God appeals to us-to our wills- rather than controlling the matter. He seeks and draws-He covets and is pleased by-a will rightly aligned with His, perfect will. And this begins with faith on man's part, in response to grace.

Anyway, you may well be one of His sheep-I'm not doubting that-but a sheep enlightened is still always better than one with faulty ideas. So continue to ask, seek, knock: study and pray-and more understanding will come. One good read for those appreciating edification is the church's position on grace outlined by the 2nd Council of Orange around 529 AD. A final thought: The doctrine of absolute assurance of salvation is a matter of putting the cart ahead of the horse while we understand such instructions as the following passage makes clear:

"Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live." Rom 8:12-13

 

[Aaron_Bethlhm]

What is the spread of teaching on predestiny? Where do church fellows rest?
There was Augustine, why would you hold to his teachings?
And with Luther's freedom there was Calvin, and Arminius. I have heard of Molinism. What do church fellows think on these things?
What online sources do you draw on?
What difference do your leanings make?

Romans 8 is true. Don't ever trust or put faith in the flesh, things or teachings or so on from men.
"Teaching predestiny?" Teachings against predestiny? Any such teachings ? Probably not helpful.
And so on, from men.
"What online sources draw on?" None.
What sources rely on? None. That is , none that God says not to draw on , not to rely on.
"What difference...?" All the difference in life and death.
"Leanings?" Lean not .... (how's the Bible say?)... Lean not even on your own understanding.
Trust? Trust not the flesh/man/mankind.
Seek out daily God's Kingdom, God's Way, as God Says - contrary to what men say, of course.
God Willing. in His Grace....

 

[5thKingdom]

Lots of talk, with some faulty understanding.

Right, it is "faulty understanding" to repeat what Scripture says
about God electing people based ONLY on His own Good Pleasure,
or God CREATING some people to be "vessels of mercy" (saved)
and others to be "vessels of destruction" (unsaved).


You mock Jesus (not me) when you pretend He did not teach
that some men were NEVER MEANT to "perceive" or "understand"
or "be converted" or have their "sins forgiven". You can reject or
intentionally ignore the Words of Christ - but that does not make
MY understanding faulty... and it certainly does not make Christ's
teachings faulty. You embarrass yourself pretending otherwise.


These Biblical facts (alone) immediately destroy your synergistic
"gospel". You do not have to LIKE what Christ taught and you
don't have to ACCEPT what He taught, in fact, you do not even
have to UNDERSTAND what Jesus taught, but Biblical Truth is
not limited to what you like or accept or understand.


The fact that you cannot find any SCRIPTURE to refute the
passages cited above is proof that the "faulty understanding"
is your synergistic heresy... not anything Jesus taught or
anything I repeated.

No one can predict their own perseverance, which is why believers are warned and instructed to, among other things, persevere.

Of course that has NOTHING to do with the issue of whether
some men were NEVER MEANT to have their "sins forgiven" or
whether God CREATED some men to be "vessels of destruction"
(unsaved) and others as "vessels of mercy" (saved).

God, alone, knows with 100% certainty whose names are written in the Book of Life and whose are not.

Once again, that has NOTHING to do with the (Biblical) fact that
Jesus taught that some men were NEVER MEANT to be saved
(have their "sins forgiven") or that God has CREATED some men
to be "vessels of destruction" and others "vessels of mercy".

But the ancient churches in the east and west from the beginning until now have come close while never making the erroneous jump that Calvin et al made....

Your FIRST mistake is to ASSUME that saints living during the
beginning of the Christian Kingdom knew more than saints living
at the END of the Christian Kingdom. You have no (Biblical) reason
for making such an assumption, in fact, it contradicts what the
Old Testament specifically PROMISES [Dan 12:8-10] and what
JESUS specifically PROMISED [Mat 24:15 and 24:33]


Your SECOND mistake is not understanding that it was always
a major PART of the Gospel that unsaved "tares" would infiltrate
the churches (before what you call the "ancient churches" began)
and the "leaven" of their false doctrines would corrupt the church.
Since this BEGAN while the Apostles were still alive, your appeal to
"ancient churches" for authority has no Biblical support whatsoever.


And, of course, your THIRD mistake is to pretend that it was
Calvin that taught some men were NEVER MEANT to be saved
and some men were CREATED to be "vessels of destruction".
In fact, these Biblical Truths were the Words of Christ and the
inspired words of Apostles... 1500 years before Calvin was born.


You only embarrass yourself when you attack Calvin for things
JESUS and the APOSTLES said, 1500 years before Calvin was born.
But you need to deflect from Scripture (because it contradict your
synergistic heresy) so you pretend Calvin is the reason your false
"gospel" does not harmonize with Scriptures. How sad is that?

None of the bible really makes any sense anyway with certain aspects of Reformed theology. God may as well have prevented Adam from sinning to begin with...

When you are the CREATOR then you can make the rules... ok?
But God has already specifically answered your complaint,
knowing that sinful men would seek to impose their
will over His (Sovereign and Autonomous) plan.


Rom 9:19-23
Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault?
For who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou
that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that
formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter
power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel
unto honour [elected to be saved], and another unto dishonour?
What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power
known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath
fitted to destruction [those created to be unsaved]: And that
he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of
mercy [those created to be saved], which he had afore prepared
unto glory,


You are but the clay - and God is the Potter.
He can design His salvation Plan however He wants.
It does not matter if you LIKE it or ACCEPT it, it is His plan
not yours. Oh sinful man who would question the Will of God!

if His plan was to override or overlook mans freedom...

Tell me please, WHERE IN THE WORLD did you get the idea
that men born spiritually DEAD (and slaves in Satan's Kingdom)
have spiritual "free will"? That idea is not found in Scriptures...
it's a man-made doctrine (from Satan).


I hate to be the one to break bad new to you, but ALL MEN
born into the Kingdom of Satan and will always chose to sin.
It is their nature, they sin of their own "free will". Which is why
the BIBLE (in both the OT and NT) PROMISES that NO MAN
will ever "seek God". God has to "draw" those He "elects".


This is a very basic and essential element of the Gospel.
If you do not understand this very basic reality then you cannot
hope to understand the Gospel of the Bible... and it has NOTHING
to do with Calvin or Luther or any man (or church).

Much evil and suffering could've been avoided if God simply stocked heaven with the elect and hell with the rest to begin with if that was His ultimate intention anyway.

Once again, you need to READ Romans 9:19-23 again (slowly)
and deal with the Biblical reality (as taught by JESUS, not Calvin)
that some men were NEVER MEANT to "perceive" or "understand"
or "be converted" (from Satan's Kingdom into God's Kingdom)
or to EVER have their "sins forgiven".


Again, when YOU are the Creator, then YOU can make the rules.


If you cannot (or will not) accept that some men were
NEVER MEANT to be saved and some men were CREATED
to be "vessels of destruction"... then you can never hope to
understand the Gospel of the Bible.

Instead God, knowing the beginning from the end, didn't abandon man but used the Fall and the sin/evil that resulted for His purposes, patiently preparing: educating and cultivating humanity, through a chosen people, to finally bring man to the point where he might be ready to accept Him....

That is just hilarious. What an imagination you have.
NONE of that is from the Bible, in fact the Bible says the
exact opposite (in both the OT and NT), that NO MAN will
ever "seek God".


Please send me the chapter and verse that teaches that God
was "patiently preparing, educating and cultivation humanity...
to finally bring man to the point where he might be ready to
accept Him..."


Of course YOU CANNOT send any chapter and verse to support
your delusion because the BIBLE teaches the OPPOSITE of what
you have imagined. What part of "NO MAN WILL SEEK GOD"
do you not understand?

... outlined by the 2nd Council of Orange around 529 AD.

LOL

A final thought: We know such things as, for example, the following passage makes clear, with absolute assurance of salvation being a matter of putting the cart ahead of the horse:

"Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live." Rom 8:12-13

News Flash: The CONTEXT of that passage is to people who have
ALREADY been regenerated, not to the reprobate or the unsaved.
The context is NOT to the MANY who are "called" by the Gospel,
but to the FEW who are "chosen" to receive eternal life.


The Bible separates all of mankind into three (3) groups:
(1) The saved "wheat" in the church, sown by God and
(2) The unsaved "tares" in the church, sown by Satan and
(3) All the lost souls OUTSIDE of the church.


Before you can even HOPE to understand the MEANING of any
passage, you must first discern the CONTEXT of that passage.
Otherwise you are applying words directed to the "children of God"
to those who are the "children of Satan"... and you are lost in some
delusional fantasy.


Which reminds me... do not forget to send me the chapter/verse
for your delusion about God "patiently preparing, educating and cultivation humanity... to finally bring man to the point where
he might be ready to accept Him..."


When the Bible PROMISES (in both the OT and NT)
that NO MAN will ever "seek God". When Jesus said
that NO MAN can come to Him unless the Father first
"draws" them and ALL MEN the Father draws "shall come",
and He will lose NONE of them.


I am anxiously waiting to see what SCRIPTURE you think
teaches such a thing... or whether that delusion is completely
from your own imagination.


.

 

[fhansen]

Right, it is "faulty understanding" to repeat what Scripture says
about God electing people based ONLY on His own Good Pleasure,
or God CREATING some people to be "vessels of mercy" (saved)
and others to be "vessels of destruction" (unsaved).


You mock Jesus (not me) when you pretend He did not teach
that some men were NEVER MEANT to "perceive" or "understand"
or "be converted" or have their "sins forgiven". You can reject or
intentionally ignore the Words of Christ - but that does not make
MY understanding faulty... and it certainly does not make Christ's
teachings faulty. You embarrass yourself pretending otherwise.


These Biblical facts (alone) immediately destroy your synergistic
"gospel". You do not have to LIKE what Christ taught and you
don't have to ACCEPT what He taught, in fact, you do not even
have to UNDERSTAND what Jesus taught, but Biblical Truth is
not limited to what you like or accept or understand.


The fact that you cannot find any SCRIPTURE to refute the
passages cited above is proof that the "faulty understanding"
is your synergistic heresy... not anything Jesus taught or
anything I repeated.





Of course that has NOTHING to do with the issue of whether
some men were NEVER MEANT to have their "sins forgiven" or
whether God CREATED some men to be "vessels of destruction"
(unsaved) and others as "vessels of mercy" (saved).





Once again, that has NOTHING to do with the (Biblical) fact that
Jesus taught that some men were NEVER MEANT to be saved
(have their "sins forgiven") or that God has CREATED some men
to be "vessels of destruction" and others "vessels of mercy".





Your FIRST mistake is to ASSUME that saints living during the
beginning of the Christian Kingdom knew more than saints living
at the END of the Christian Kingdom. You have no (Biblical) reason
for making such an assumption, in fact, it contradicts what the
Old Testament specifically PROMISES [Dan 12:8-10] and what
JESUS specifically PROMISED [Mat 24:15 and 24:33]


Your SECOND mistake is not understanding that it was always
a major PART of the Gospel that unsaved "tares" would infiltrate
the churches (before what you call the "ancient churches" began)
and the "leaven" of their false doctrines would corrupt the church.
Since this BEGAN while the Apostles were still alive, your appeal to
"ancient churches" for authority has no Biblical support whatsoever.


And, of course, your THIRD mistake is to pretend that it was
Calvin that taught some men were NEVER MEANT to be saved
and some men were CREATED to be "vessels of destruction".
In fact, these Biblical Truths were the Words of Christ and the
inspired words of Apostles... 1500 years before Calvin was born.


You only embarrass yourself when you attack Calvin for things
JESUS and the APOSTLES said, 1500 years before Calvin was born.
But you need to deflect from Scripture (because it contradict your
synergistic heresy) so you pretend Calvin is the reason your false
"gospel" does not harmonize with Scriptures. How sad is that?





When you are the CREATOR then you can make the rules... ok?
But God has already specifically answered your complaint,
knowing that sinful men would seek to impose their
will over His (Sovereign and Autonomous) plan.


Rom 9:19-23
Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault?
For who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou
that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that
formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter
power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel
unto honour [elected to be saved], and another unto dishonour?
What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power
known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath
fitted to destruction [those created to be unsaved]: And that
he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of
mercy [those created to be saved], which he had afore prepared
unto glory,


You are but the clay - and God is the Potter.
He can design His salvation Plan however He wants.
It does not matter if you LIKE it or ACCEPT it, it is His plan
not yours. Oh sinful man who would question the Will of God!





Tell me please, WHERE IN THE WORLD did you get the idea
that men born spiritually DEAD (and slaves in Satan's Kingdom)
have spiritual "free will"? That idea is not found in Scriptures...
it's a man-made doctrine (from Satan).


I hate to be the one to break bad new to you, but ALL MEN
born into the Kingdom of Satan and will always chose to sin.
It is their nature, they sin of their own "free will". Which is why
the BIBLE (in both the OT and NT) PROMISES that NO MAN
will ever "seek God". God has to "draw" those He "elects".


This is a very basic and essential element of the Gospel.
If you do not understand this very basic reality then you cannot
hope to understand the Gospel of the Bible... and it has NOTHING
to do with Calvin or Luther or any man (or church).





Once again, you need to READ Romans 9:19-23 again (slowly)
and deal with the Biblical reality (as taught by JESUS, not Calvin)
that some men were NEVER MEANT to "perceive" or "understand"
or "be converted" (from Satan's Kingdom into God's Kingdom)
or to EVER have their "sins forgiven".


Again, when YOU are the Creator, then YOU can make the rules.


If you cannot (or will not) accept that some men were
NEVER MEANT to be saved and some men were CREATED
to be "vessels of destruction"... then you can never hope to
understand the Gospel of the Bible.





That is just hilarious. What an imagination you have.
NONE of that is from the Bible, in fact the Bible says the
exact opposite (in both the OT and NT), that NO MAN will
ever "seek God".


Please send me the chapter and verse that teaches that God
was "patiently preparing, educating and cultivation humanity...
to finally bring man to the point where he might be ready to
accept Him..."


Of course YOU CANNOT send any chapter and verse to support
your delusion because the BIBLE teaches the OPPOSITE of what
you have imagined. What part of "NO MAN WILL SEEK GOD"
do you not understand?





LOL





News Flash: The CONTEXT of that passage is to people who have
ALREADY been regenerated, not to the reprobate or the unsaved.
The context is NOT to the MANY who are "called" by the Gospel,
but to the FEW who are "chosen" to receive eternal life.


The Bible separates all of mankind into three (3) groups:
(1) The saved "wheat" in the church, sown by God and
(2) The unsaved "tares" in the church, sown by Satan and
(3) All the lost souls OUTSIDE of the church.


Before you can even HOPE to understand the MEANING of any
passage, you must first discern the CONTEXT of that passage.
Otherwise you are applying words directed to the "children of God"
to those who are the "children of Satan"... and you are lost in some
delusional fantasy.


Which reminds me... do not forget to send me the chapter/verse
for your delusion about God "patiently preparing, educating and cultivation humanity... to finally bring man to the point where
he might be ready to accept Him..."


When the Bible PROMISES (in both the OT and NT)
that NO MAN will ever "seek God". When Jesus said
that NO MAN can come to Him unless the Father first
"draws" them and ALL MEN the Father draws "shall come",
and He will lose NONE of them.


I am anxiously waiting to see what SCRIPTURE you think
teaches such a thing... or whether that delusion is completely
from your own imagination.


.

Alright…all of this has to do with knowing something of who God is and of His overall will for man-and something of His unfathomably deep love for His creation; it's to know Him.

“This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all people.” 1 Tim 2:3-6

“The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.” 2 Pet 3:9

Rom 9 is a single, isolated portion of the bible where Paul isn’t endeavoring to lay down some kind of overarching specific Christian dogma but rather to address Israel’s reluctance to accept the gospel while also laying down some valid principles including the fact that God’s will is undeniably unquestionable. He’s also arguably doing some speculating regarding the state of the Jews and predestination; we know from his own testimony that not everything he says necessarily comes directly from the Lord (1 Cor 7). He even begins verse 22 with the words, “What if…”

But yes, the elect are the elect-no one contests that. But we’re discussing the basis for election-and even tho you and Calvin may think you have it neatly resolved...you might, but only in your own minds-while the Church of Christ never came down squarely on either side and taking the whole counsel of Scripture into account, its quite obvious that the will of man is meant to be involved.

Man is referred to as saved, being saved, and to be saved in Scripture, needing to work out his salvation, to make his calling and election sure. The will is actually the prize, so to speak. And for every word of encouragement and hyperbolic statement to believers concerning our already saved status there are instructions, admonitions, warnings, encouragements, etc for remaining in the faith, for persevering, for doing good, for being holy, for washing ones robes, etc in order to gain eternal life. Again, Rom 8:12-13 speaks quite clearly of the “synergistic” dynamic that accomplishes this.

“Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live. Rom 8:12-13

The real gospel has never swayed from the understanding that man cannot possibly save himself, and yet can still refuse to be saved. More on man’s involvement that makes salvation contingent:

“To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.” Rom 2:7

“…just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.” Rom 5:21

“Make every effort to live in peace with everyone and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord.” Heb 12:14

Again, as I’ve mentioned elsewhere, read the decrees of the 2nd Council of Orange to see what the Church really teaches. Don’t do it if your afraid, however-truth can be scary.
The Canons of the Second Council of Orange (529)

 

[fhansen]

Which reminds me... do not forget to send me the chapter/verse

for your delusion about God "patiently preparing, educating and cultivation humanity... to finally bring man to the point where

he might be ready to accept Him..."

It's called the Old Testament, with the Old Covenant being one of the more critical parts of man's education. Do you think God had no purpose in His dealings with man from Eden on? Jesus came when the time "had fully come" (Gal 4:4). There’s a reason why man wasn’t ready before then.

"What shall we say, then? Is the law sinful? Certainly not! Nevertheless, I would not have known what sin was had it not been for the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, “You shall not covet.” Rom 7:7

"Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor." Gal 3:24

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

In Proberbs it is written that when we converse with each other that it sharpens us like Iron on Iron.

When people are filled with the Spirit they know it. There are Calvinist, Arminian and Catholic Pentecostals. Some who preached and preach to me are French Canadian Calvinists. We all have faith, and therefore we can apply it and are saved by grace. We yield the same fruits.

The early church fathers through their connection to the apostles, had sound doctrine compared to people who then and now read the Bible on their own. Like Arius the presbyter on the fringes of the church in his day, and JWs...

Romans 9 cannot contradict Romans 7 and 8. "Those God foreknew He chose." And Acts, God appointed the places and times of our births, so that we would reach out to Him, who is not far from each one of us.

Peter, Paul and John the apostles taught us to continue in the faith by which we are saved. The first mention of false teaching or heresy are to keep the fellows on the path of salvation. There is a different faith we can hear and believe, like, Jesus was the incarnation of St Michael, that means they who believe it put their faith in Michael to save them, under Heaven. The result is they no longer trust Jesus, and may lose their lives. Are we hear discussing a heresy that can cost people their lives under God's judgement?

 

[5thKingdom]

The early church fathers through their connection to the apostles, had sound doctrine compared to people who then and now read the Bible on their own. Like Arius the presbyter on the fringes of the church in his day, and JWs...

That is your opinion which is NOT supported by Scripture.
Daniel 12:8-10 explains the LAST SAINTS will understand
more than any previous saints because some Biblical Truths
remained "closed up" and "sealed" until the LAST SAINTS
"shall understand" at the "time of the end"... which is
also shown as the "Season and Time". (what do YOU
or the early saints know about the "Season and Time"?
The Biblical and historical answer is: NOTHING.


Obviously, your "theory" about the early saints having MORE
understanding is contradicted in the OT. You can accept that
Biblical fact or you can ignore it... it makes no difference to
Truth.


JESUS PROMISED the Last Saints "shall see ALL these things"
that no previous saint could see [Mat 24:15 and 24:33]. So again,
you are entitled to your opinion (however incorrect) but the BIBLE
(both in the OT and NT) contradicts your theory. And even logic
contradicts your assumptions as nobody but the LAST SAINTS
can understand the historical fulfillment of Daniel's "Abomination"
or the NAME (or events) associated with the "Little Horn" or the
False Prophet (commonly called the "Antichrist").


Your "logic" and "theories" are so easily proven to contradict
Scripture that it is embarrassing.

Romans 9 cannot contradict Romans 7 and 8. "Those God foreknew He chose." And Acts, God appointed the places and times of our births, so that we would reach out to Him, who is not far from each one of us.

And Romans 7 and 8 and Acts cannot contradict Romans 3
where (like it "was written" in the OT) the Bible PROMISES
that NO MAN (no, not even one) will ever "seek God"...
of course other Scriptures explain that's BEFORE regeneration.
So whenever you dare to PREACH the opposite, know that you
are (intentionally) providing a half-truth (which is also called a "lie").


Moreover... despite what you THINK you understand, Mark 4:11-12
clearly teaches that some men are GIVEN understanding of the
"Kingdom of God" while others are NEVER MEANT to be saved.
(which is, of course, exactly what Romans 9 reveals... like it or not.
So when you contradict Romans 3 and Romans 9 and Mark 4...
you can know absolutely that your "theories" are not Biblical)


When some men are NOT MEANT to "perceive" or "understand"
or "be converted" or have "their sins forgiven" that shows
(absolutely) they were NEVER MEANT to be saved (sins forgiven).


You do not have to LIKE what the Bible teaches and you do not
have to ACCEPT what the Bible teaches, but Biblical Truth is NOT
limited to your understanding.... or what you LIKE or ACCEPT.
It you are a real saint you will SUBMIT to the harmony of Scripture
(that will be your "fruit") otherwise you will contradict Scripture by
repeating the verses you LIKE and ignoring those contradicting
your "theory".

Peter, Paul and John the apostles taught us to continue in the faith by which we are saved.

Of course, when you say "us" you are identifying ONLY the
saved "wheat" in the church (sown by God) and NONE of the
unsaved "tares" in the church (sown by Satan)... that is the
(wait for it....) CONTEXT of the passage you refer to.
If you cannot discern the CONTEXT of a verse, you have no hope
of ever finding the (true) MEANING of that verse.

The first mention of false teaching or heresy are to keep the fellows on the path of salvation.

But, of course, you could not be more wrong.
Long before the Apostles penned their letters JESUS TAUGHT
the "church" would be infiltrated by unsaved "tares" and the
"leaven" of their false doctrines would corrupt the churches...
AND he taught the "church" would consist of BOTH the saved
"wheat" (sown by God) and unsaved "tares" (sown by Satan)


Once again we see your presupposition contradicts Scripture,
so your teaching cannot possibly be Biblical. You cannot even
PRETEND to understand Biblical Truth when your "theories"
do not harmonize with ALL RELATED Scriptures. This is really
Christian theology 101, the most basic and essential element
of understanding Biblical truth. From your statements above
it is clear this is "news" to you.


Jim

 

[5thKingdom]

When people are filled with the Spirit they know it. There are Calvinist, Arminian and Catholic Pentecostals. Some who preached and preach to me are French Canadian Calvinists. We all have faith, and therefore we can apply it and are saved by grace. We yield the same fruits.

When people are "filled with the Spirit" they DEMONSTRATE that
reality by their "fruit"... which includes BOTH good behavior and
correct Biblical doctrine.


When someone is teaching HERESY (as Arminians, Catholics and
Pentecostals do) they are showing the "fruit" of not having the
indwelling Spirit teaching them Biblical Truth (or at the very best,
being just a "babe in Christ" needing much correction)


In fact, the real Saints are COMMANDED to
(a) identify those showing the "fruit" of teaching heresy
(b) rebuke those people - and insist they repent and
(c) expel them from the church if they do not repent


Now, of course, there are entire churches and denominations
that show the "fruit" of teaching heresies like Arminianism and
Catholic dogma and Pentecostal lies... but, as we know, that
is just the historical FULFILLMENT of what Jesus PROMISED,
that the "church" would be infiltrated by unsaved "tares" and
the "leaven" of their false doctrines would corrupt the Truth.


This was all FORETOLD... it was EXPECTED. It is actually
a major PART of the NT Gospel. This should not be "news"
to anyone who REALLY is indwelt with the Spirit, which
TEACHES them Biblical truth from Satanic error.


You cannot have it both ways. Either the indwelling Spirit
TEACHES the saints Truth from error (as the Bible promises)
or the saints will show the "fruit" of teaching heresies...
it is really as simple as that.


Jim

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

I think the idea only Calvinists are wheat is preposterous. As I said, we fellowship with the same fruits, all of us sought by the same God and some common preachings and layings on of hands.

We testify to the same phenomena. And some reveal each other's secret thoughts.

The early church fathers were saints of the the latter days, who knew who the Messiah was, and the meaning of the blood sacrifices and who had the anointing that teaches, from the laying on of hands of Peter, James, John, Paul, Andrew and Philip.

 

[Clare73]

Real saints (those "indwelt" with the Holy Spirit)
have no need for "online sources" because we have
(wait for it....) the BIBLE that tells us everything we need
to know and we have the Holy Spirit that teaches us what
is truth and what is heresy.


1Jn 2:27
But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you,
and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same
anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie,
and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.


So the question becomes, WHY do some men follow a Gospel
of monergism (as Calvin taught) and other men follow the
heresy of synergism (as Arminus taught)?


And the answer is obvious: The Christian church consists
of BOTH saved "wheat" sown by God and destined to eternal
life (these "children of God" are taught by God) and the church
also consists of unsaved "tares" sown by Satan and destined to
the same eternal fire prepared for Satan and his demons
(these "children of Satan" follow false doctrines).


When the Lord said "you shall know them by their fruit" He was
talking about BOTH their behavior AND their doctrines... saints
do not follow heretical doctrines - but the unsaved "tares" will.


That is why God COMMANDS the elders of the church to
(a) identify those with "fruit" of the unsaved (behavior/doctrines)
(b) rebuke them for their sinful behavior and/or doctrines and
(c) expel them from the church if they do not repent.


Now, to apply this to your question:
Church elders seeing members believing heresies of Arminianism
(a) rebuke those people and (b) expel them from the church if
they do not repent of those heresies... since their "fruit" exposes
them as being unsaved "tares" and NOT saved "wheat".


Of course, if you even KNOW about Calvinism and Arminianism
you would also know that Arminianism was declared as heresy
long ago - and those teaching that heresy were NOT ACCEPTED
in the faithful churches.


The fact that we are at the "time-of-the-end" [Dan 12:8-10],
when the vast majority of "Christians" are unsaved "tares",
does not change the (Biblical) fact that real saints do not
follow heresies. Real saints have the "indwelling" Spirit
that teaches them to discern false doctrines.


Now, this is very confusing to the unsaved "tares" who do not
have the "indwelling" Holy Spirit to teach them truth from error.
But that is just the way God has designed His salvation plan.
Jesus was very clear that some men were NEVER MEANT to
"perceive" or "understand" or "be converted" or to have their
"sins forgiven". But unsaved "tares" reject the Words of Christ,
because they want a different "gospel" (being "children of Satan")


Mar 4:11
And he said unto them [the disciples], Unto you [the elect]
IT IS GIVEN to know the MYSTERY of the Kingdom of God:
but unto them that are without [all the unsaved], all these
things [all these Biblical Truths] are done in parables:

Mar 4:12
That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing
they may hear, and not understand; LEST AT ANY TIME they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.


Yes, it is true that JESUS taught that some were NEVER MEANT
to be saved (to have their sins forgiven). Yes, it is true the Bible
teaches that some men were CREATED to be "vessels of mercy"
(saved) and others were CREATED to be "vessels of destruction"
(unsaved)... but unsaved "tares" do not want to accept this truth.


So you have the MAJORITY of the church following a false "gospel"
of synergism, which is the BROAD WAY that leads most Christians
into destruction. And you have a MINORITY of the church following
the True Gospel of monergism, which is the narrow way that leads
to eternal life - and FEW Christians are able to find it.


Now, some men (unsaved "tares") think they can find Truth
from the teachings of MAN (Calvin or Arminus) when the BIBLE
teaches saved "wheat" are taught Biblical truth by the Holy Spirit.


And so, today (as it always was) you have the "elect" following
the True Gospel of monergism and the unsaved "tares" following
the heresies of Satan in a synergistic "gospel". The "elect" know
that some men were NEVER MEANT to have their sins forgiven
while the unsaved "tares" pretend salvation is a "free offer" to
all men and NOT limited to those God "chose" before the world
began to be part of "His sheep".


1Jn 4:6
We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us;
he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we
the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.


Bottom Line:
The teachings of Calvin were NOT his teachings, they were the
teachings of Christ... some 1500 years before Calvin was born.
The saved "wheat" understand this Truth while all of the unsaved
"tares" pretend "Reformed theology" was invented by Calvin.


Any man who refuses to accept the Biblical Truth that some men
were NEVER MEANT to be saved... that God CREATED some to
be "vessels of mercy" and others to be "vessels of destruction"
are showing the "fruit" of not having the "indwelling" Holy Spirit
that teaches them Truth and allows them to discern heresy.


Real saints DO NOT FOLLOW heresies... they have good "fruit".
Unsaved "tares" follow heresies... they are exposed by their
rotten "fruit".


Anyone with the "indwelling" Holy Spirit understands this...
those without the Spirit cannot "perceive" and cannot "understand"
and cannot "be converted" and cannot have their "sins forgiven"...
so they run to-and-fro looking for online sources of Truth,
when the real saints only need to read the Bible.


BTW.... Jesus did not PAY for the sins of those who could not
have their "sins forgiven"... so we (saints) know that the heresy
of universal atonement contradicts Scripture. Those who pretend
that "all men" includes MORE than all the "elect" are showing the
"fruit" of unsaved "tares". Those who think "the world" includes
MORE than both Jew and Gentile (Jew + Gentile = "the world")
are only showing the "fruit" of not discerning Truth from heresy.

"Calvinism" is a misnomer, it is Paulism.
.

 

[5thKingdom]

"Calvinism" is a misnomer, it is Paulism.
.

You can call it whatever you want.

The FACT is... there are two (2) "gospels" in the church.
The false synergistic gospel and the True Gospel of monergism.

One is the BROAD WAY that leads MANY "Christians"
into destruction. The other is the narrow way that leads
Christians into eternal life, and FEW Christians find this way.

Generally speaking, Reformed theology (what you call Calvinism
or Paulism) is the narrow way that FEW Christians find. Catholics
preach synergism, as do most Protestants. There are only FEW
Protestants that preach monergism. So the Scripture is fulfilled:

MANY are called ("called" by the Gospel)
but FEW are chosen ("chosen" to be saved)

Those who are "elected" to be saved show their good "fruit"
of preaching the True Gospel. Those who are not "chosen"
show the bad "fruit" of preaching a false Gospel. Remember,
Jesus PROMISED we could tell heretics by their "fruit".

Jim

 

[Clare73]

You can call it whatever you want.

The FACT is... there are two (2) "gospels" in the church.
The false synergistic gospel and the True Gospel of monergism.

One is the BROAD WAY that leads MANY "Christians"
into destruction. The other is the narrow way that leads
Christians into eternal life, and FEW Christians find this way.

Generally speaking, Reformed theology (what you call Calvinism
or Paulism) is the narrow way that FEW Christians find. Catholics
preach synergism, as do most Protestants. There are only FEW
Protestants that preach monergism. So the Scripture is fulfilled:

MANY are called ("called" by the Gospel)
but FEW are chosen ("chosen" to be saved)

Those who are "elected" to be saved show their good "fruit"
of preaching the True Gospel. Those who are not "chosen"
show the bad "fruit" of preaching a false Gospel. Remember,
Jesus PROMISED we could tell heretics by their "fruit".

Jim

That would be fruit of the Spirit, right--love, joy, peace, long-suffering (patience), kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control.

The fruits of the Spirit reproduce character, while Christian works are building (1Co 3:10-15) rather than fruits.
.