Augsburg Confession, Article V: Of the Ministry.

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Title: CHIEF ARTICLES OF FAITH - Article V - Of the Ministry Topic: Catholic Lutheran Dialogue - The Augsburg Confession and the Confutatio Pontificia - Where we were then, and where we are now. (Fifth in a series of Article by Article discussions relating to these historic documents).

1. MarkRohfrietsch will represent the Lutheran Position; Athanasias will represent the Catholic position.
2. Following the historic pattern, the opening posts of each discussion in this series will consist of the particular Articles themselves (The Augsburg Confession) , and the corresponding response as presented from the Confutatio (1530 Roman Confutation). Mark will then open the discussion with Athanasias responding.
3. Sincethis is a one-on-one discussion rather than a debate the number of rounds will be three each, however, by consent of both participants, if the discussion has run it's course, the discussion may be closed early; if it has not run it's course, the participants may agree to extend it. (Some articles such as the first historically resulted in little dispute, so the discussion may be quite short; others not so much)
4. The posts will be alternating.
5. Since both of us lead busy lives, we will not be setting a time between posts.
6. The maximum length for each post will be limited to the word count capacity of a single post.
7. All quotes and outside references are allowed. Please note that all quotes will fall under the 20% copyright rule. Also note that all quotes from the Lutheran Confessions and the Confutation will be taken from the unaltered Book of Concord; 1580 edition found here: Welcome to the Book of Concord.
8. Start date-Very soon.
9. In this discussion, the three Peanut Galleries; set up in General Theology , One Bread, One Body - Catholic, and Theologia Crucis - Lutherans will be updated and links to this debate will be added. Please note that the Christian Only rules apply in General Theology, and the Congregational rules apply in both the OBOB and TCL threads.

Peanut Gallery threads:

• General Theology: Formal Debate-Peanut Gallery-Catholic Lutheran Dialogue-Augsburg Confession...
• One Bread, One Body - Catholic: Formal Debate-Peanut Gallery-Catholic Lutheran Dialogue-Augsburg Confession...
• Theologia Crucis - Lutherans: Formal Debate-Peanut Gallery-Catholic Lutheran Dialogue-Augsburg Confession...

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

From the Augsburg Confession:

Article V: Of the Ministry.

That we may obtain this faith, the Ministry of Teaching the Gospel and administering the Sacraments was instituted. For through the Word and Sacraments, as through instruments, the Holy Ghost is given, who works faith; where and when it pleases God, in them that hear the Gospel, to wit, that God, not for our own merits, but for Christ's sake, justifies those who believe that they are received into grace for Christ's sake.
They condemn the Anabaptists and others who think that the Holy Ghost comes to men without the external Word, through their own preparations and works.

FROM THE CONFUTATIO PONTIFICIA:

To Article V.

In the fifth article the statement that the Holy Ghost is given by the Word and sacraments, as by instruments, is approved. For thus it is written, Acts 10:44: "While Peter yet spoke these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word." And John 1:33: "The same is He which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost." The mention, however, that they here make of faith is approved so far as not Faith alone, which some incorrectly teach, but faith which worketh by love, is understood, as the apostle teaches aright in Gal 5:3. For in baptism there is an infusion, not of faith alone, but also, at the same time, of hope and love, as Pope Alexander declares in the canon Majores concerning baptism and its effect; which John the Baptist also taught long before, saying, Luke 3:16: "He shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire."

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Almighty and everlasting God, who alone doest great wonders, send down upon Thy ministers and upon the congregations committed to their charge the healthful Spirit of Thy grace; and that they may truly please Thee, pour upon the the continual dew of Thy blessing; through Jesus Christ, Thy dear Son, our Lord, who liveth and reigneth with Thee and the Holy Ghost, ever one God, world without end. Amen. (From the Lutheran Hymnal, Concordia 1941, Collect 15 pg. 103)

Greetings, blessings and peace dear brother Athanasias! Here we are again, revisiting the office of the Holy Ministry, the Priesthood which we discussed back in April of this year here: Priesthood? In the historic context of both Article V and the Confutation, it appears that neither those who signed the AC nor those in the Catholic Chruch opposing the signatories of the OC felt that there were issues with the ministry, but they did have issues with Sola Fide... "which some incorrectly teach".

I am taking a bit of a leap here, but I believe that they may have been referring to a teaching regarding Sola Fide outside of both Augsburg and the Catholic Church. What further convinces me that this must be the case is that there was no further mention of this article in the Apology of the Augsburg Confession as can be seen here in the index at the left: Defense of the Augsburg Confession - Book of Concord.

Certainly there are some issues that have came to light in the years that followed the AC, the RP and the Apology; but during this period in time the disagreements which ultimately separated we Lutherans from our Catholic brothers and sisters was not the office of the ministry.

What are your thoughts on this Athanasias?

 

[Athanasias]

Hey Brother. I just wanted to say Amen to that opening prayer! It seems to me so far that this has been resolved on the sole fide part at least. I say this because the Catholics seem to condemn "sola fide"(meaning intellectual assent alone). I say this because they quote Gal 5 to retort this. Recently Pope Benedict XVI made mention of that fact that a "saving faith" includes those acts of love as Gal 5:6 says so Luther was right if he meant that kind of faith. I think I quoted that in the other dialog we had on justification. I think we can both agree with that. Does that sound right to you?

God bless you brother!

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Hey Brother. I just wanted to say Amen to that opening prayer! It seems to me so far that this has been resolved on the sole fide part at least. I say this because the Catholics seem to condemn "sola fide"(meaning intellectual assent alone). I say this because they quote Gal 5 to retort this. Recently Pope Benedict XVI made mention of that fact that a "saving faith" includes those acts of love as Gal 5:6 says so Luther was right if he meant that kind of faith. I think I quoted that in the other dialog we had on justification. I think we can both agree with that. Does that sound right to you?

God bless you brother!

Thanks Athanasias; I chose that opening prayer because it seemed that it could have been drawn from both Article V and the Catholic response, and seemed most appropriate.

Thanks for your response, brief though it was, (coming from you that is; note: I coppied your post in so mine would look bigger) you packed a lot of truth into it. The fact that we hashed through this topic of the Priesthood and the office of the Holy Ministry earlier this year made this discussion on that was very straight forward. For those reading this thread who are not familiar with that more in-depth discussion (Priesthood?) we both concluded that the understanding of the Church (our Churches) is consistent except for some variance in our terminology and in our polity (which is a topic for another time).

To use the language of the times 'Sola Fide by the definition of intellectual assent alone is 'rejected among us'; some miss the point that while we do subscribe to Sola Fide, we also subscribe to the four other Solas. You had indeed quoted in our other dialogue, and you are also right in that we both can agree on this. Faith is a gift from God, which is indeed an act of love on God's part; love is part of that faith which we receive from the Holy Spirit, and it is out of that love and out of that faith that motivate works; which if truly motivated by one's faith will be works of love.

From my POV our treatment of this topic, in context of the documents and the time is complete, including the resolution of Sola Fide.

If there is anything that you wish to add Athanasias please feel free!

When I get a Chance in the next couple of days I will set up for Article VI: Of New Obedience (looks like we can address Sola Fide a bit more deeply).

God bless you dear friend and brother in Christ!