Unfortunately, this has nothing to do with abortion. Soooo... getting back on topic...
I also find it odd how no one has actually been able to provide one justification for being "pro-life" based off of the Bible. Instead, I am asked questions and not given any answers. laugh out loud
I asked you: "Nothing in the OT can be used to justify abortion. If you think so, break down the verses in question and show us how they may apply."Conquer of Canaan. The slaughter of the many Ites, not limited to the Midianites and Amalekites, to name a few.
The killing of people that
Psalm 137: 9.
I'm sure there's more, but that is more than sufficient to the point.
And, dear friend, how do I "not understand" the Old Testament? :/ I can clearly reference numerous instances which CLEARLY endorse the wholesale slaugher of innocent babies and infants. This does not mean I don't understand it. Perhaps it is you who is lacking in understanding, seeing as how you so brazenly write off those of show from scripture that God is pro-infant death.
I certainly hope that they do, but does that justify the death of infants and sin of those doing the killing.Besides, we all know infants go straight to heaven anyway.
They are not problematic for me, I understand why God told them to do it. Do you?Well, here are a few more verses which may be a bit problematic for the pro-lifers...
I asked you: "Nothing in the OT can be used to justify abortion. If you think so, break down the verses in question and show us how they may apply."
lol
See above verses.^
You have not done anything other than mention a few of the people which God ordered the Israelites to kill all and given one verse. You have shown no understanding as of yet.
I don't have to "prove" anything to you. I began the first post with a QUESTION, implying the onus is on you, not me. However, I was gracious enough to give you a whole truckload of verses to play with up there. ^ See above.
I certainly hope that they do, but does that justify the death of infants and sin of those doing the killing.
That is the question, isn't it? "Does the end justify the means?" Although they would possibly disagree with this instance, we both know MOST Christians would be all-too quick to give us a resounding 'Yes'.
Does Jesus going straight to heaven justify those who killed him?
They are not problematic for me, I understand why God told them to do it. Do you?
Does God telling the Israelites to kill the Medianites justify Al Qaeda for killing the 3000 people on 9/11?
You copied those from google eh?
I'll try to go down the list the best I can.
Exodus 12:29 - God killed the firstborn. The Israelites did not go around killing the first born of whomever did not have the mark above the door (how would they know who the firstborn is in every house hold?). Firstborns could have died from natural causes, God naturally causing them to die
The New Testament says the "Destroyer" did it.
Numbers 31:17 - Seems like Israel was doing this so they could reproduce. They needed to grow as a nation. I personally have suspicions about whether or not God ordered this, but assuming that he did, Israel killed everyone (born and unborn) except for virgin females.
Gotta love that crazy ol' Moses, huh? He's so crazay.
Deuteronomy 2: 33-34 - I think you'd be better off arguing God commanding genocide than abortion with this verse. Everyone died. Everyone, everything. Why? I can't really answer you. I mean there's really nothing I can say.
It does not detract from the idea that God is (apparently) pro-infant death, though. So the point stands.
Deuteronomy 3:2-6 - same as above
1 Samuel 15:3,7-8 - same as above
2 Samuel 12:15-18 - another example of God personally taking a child's life. How is this in ANY way related to abortion?
God is not against infant death. Abortion is infant death (is it not?) I'm not making the fallacious argument that a fetus or embryo is NOT a person, unlike most. I don't doubt that it is. Yet these verses clearly advocate infant death.
2 Kings 2:23-24 - same as above. I sometimes wonder if these stories weren't told to younger generations to express the importance of following God and not making fun of your elders. That is to say, its not abortion or pro-life related.
So, God will kill you if you make fun of your elders then?
Isaiah 13:15-18 - prophecy of things that are going to happen? I'd have to go back and read the story of what was going on at that time but I don't see anything related to pro-choice or pro-life......unless you mean you have the choice to repent to God or not...
Infant. Death.
Isaiah 14:21-22 - same as above, I'd need to read the story of what was going on
Jeremiah 13:14 - same as above, but I don't see anything related to pro life or pro choice
Dude did you actually read these or did you copy and paste? Most of these seem to be events that were happening in the Bible or prophecies of things to come if someone didn't repent.
Thanks, I'm glad to see that you admit that abortion cannot be supported by the OT.Define "straight to heaven"...? Actually, you know what? Don't bother - it is (again) entirely sidetracking the issue at hand here (out of refusal - or inability perhaps - to answer the original question).
It's fine if you cannot argue that abortion is wrong from the Old Testament. Neither can I.
How you feel about is your right. I don't speak against that, only against a person misusing scripture to support it.It doesn't change how I personally feel about it, however.
I didn't, you did.But let's not try and use the Bible to suit our own religious or political agendas and beliefs, shall we?
You still haven't shown that you understand "why" God told the Israelites to kill all the Medianites or others in the scriptures.Infant death is the name of the game in 90% of those verses. Do you not believe abortion is infant death? I do.
Thanks, I'm glad to see that you admit that abortion cannot be supported by the OT.
You still haven't shown that you understand "why" God told the Israelites to kill all the Medianites or others in the scriptures.
If you try and use those verses to support abortion, then you must also use those verses to support of murder.
Are you Muslim? Are you a crazy religious fanatic?In the eyes of a Muslim (or any other crazy religious fanatic, including Christians) the answer is a clear: YES.
When are you going to explain "why" God did these things so that we can see how you can support abortion through scripture. Cutting and pasting is simple. Most all grade school kids can do that these days. Explain scripture.No problem. Psalm 137:9 is my favorite.
Yes God will kill you if you make fun of your elders or disagree with people online. So I'd watch out.
Sullivan, I just don't see how I can make an argument with you if you equate abortion and pro-life/pro-choice to death. There's a huge difference. First, we'd have to settle on what abortion means.
Abortion -Abortion is the termination of a pregnancy by the removal or expulsion from the uterus of a fetus or embryo, resulting in or caused by its death. An abortion can occur spontaneously due to complications during pregnancy or can be induced, in humans and other species.
Or to simplify, I believe abortion is purposefully killing a baby before it is born. Period. Natural abortions(as in you did not do anything intentionally to kill the baby, the woman's body or the baby's body just fails to support him/her)....well you can't really do anything about that.
Now lets look at genocide, because a lot of the verses you listed had more to do with that than abortion
Genocide - systematic killing of a racial or cultural group
or
Genocide - Genocide is the deliberate and systematic destruction, in whole or in part, of an ethnic, racial, religious, or national group.
When are you going to explain "why" God did these things so that we can see how you can support abortion through scripture. Cutting and pasting is simple. Most all grade school kids can do that these days. Explain scripture.
I can't but many crazy religious fanaticals do.And well you could!
I would say that it would fit for the doctor in most cases.Abortion IS 'infant murder' is it not???
Thou shalt not kill.If killing a baby is wrong, surely killing a grown (sinful) adult is wrong too!
Which is good? You called abortion murder and killing an adult wrong. Neither is good.I don't see how one is good and the other not.
Those laws won't help come judgment.But (thankfully) we have laws outlawing murder where I live!
I knew that you weren't a biblical scholar when you tried to justify abortion using the OT.See, I'm supposed to be a bible scholar now... Mmm, 'fraid not.
You don't have to be a scholar to read scripture. If you read it, at least you would know not to use it as you did.My education is not in biblical scholary. So perhaps you can enlighten me, teach. I don't rely on the Bible itself to be my "moral" compass.
We all fall short, thank God for the cross.(If I did, I would be in trouble...)
Allowing the Holy Spirit to guide us in right and wrong, is far more important than a list of do's and don'ts. Much of the OT scripture was revelation about what was to come.(Jesus)I see murder, abortion, genocide, whatever as wrong intrisically, not because I read about it in a list of dos and don'ts.
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