Attn: All Pro-Lifers!

[SullivanZ]

Hi,

Where do you get your justification for claiming to be Pro-Life? I am a Pro-Lifer myself, but perhaps not in the absolute sense (there may be extenuating circumstances, but that would be very rare. My justification for it comes from extra-biblical sources and views.)

My question is, how do you possibly use (or misuse) the Bible to justify the position that killing babies is wrong???

The Bible is definitely not in agreement with this statement. (There are too many contrary examples in Holy Writ to say otherwise.)

God bless.

 

[Yarddog]

Hi,

Where do you get your justification for claiming to be Pro-Life? I am a Pro-Lifer myself, but perhaps not in the absolute sense (there may be extenuating circumstances, but that would be very rare. My justification for it comes from extra-biblical sources and views.)

My question is, how do you possibly use (or misuse) the Bible to justify the position that killing babies is wrong???

The Bible is definitely not in agreement with this statement. (There are too many contrary examples in Holy Writ to say otherwise.)

God bless.

Tell us where the killing of innocent babies is justified using the NT. Tell us where the killing of any baby is justified without a command from God.

How do you relate abortion, a mother having her own baby killed, to the command to kill the children of pagans in the land which God gave Israel?

 

[Grey Wanderer]

Tell us where the killing of innocent babies is justified using the NT. Tell us where the killing of any baby is justified without a command from God.

How do you relate abortion, a mother having her own baby killed, to the command to kill the children of pagans in the land which God gave Israel?

Good questions.

I am eager for a response......

 

[solarwave]

Tell us where the killing of innocent babies is justified using the NT. Tell us where the killing of any baby is justified without a command from God.

Does a command from God somehow change the nature of wrong and right? Can God commands rape and make it therefore ok? If not then the commands of God don't change whaty morality already is and killing babies can be justified sometimes.

How do you relate abortion, a mother having her own baby killed, to the command to kill the children of pagans in the land which God gave Israel?

I would say the former is more moral than the genocide of innocents for no good reason.

 

[brightmorningstar]

Solarwave,

I would say the former is more moral than the genocide of innocents for no good reason.

No one is innocent, all have sinned and have fallen short of God's glory. Doesnt Jesus teach this? The wages of sin is death, in Adam all die, in Christ Jesus all may live.

 

[solarwave]

Solarwave,
No one is innocent, all have sinned and have fallen short of God's glory. Doesnt Jesus teach this? The wages of sin is death, in Adam all die, in Christ Jesus all may live.

Babies havn't sinned and sin doesn't pass from parent to child.

 

[Yarddog]

Does a command from God somehow change the nature of wrong and right?

Yes. God defines sin, not man. In the OT God commanded the Hebrews to kill all the inhabitants of the cities they conquered, such as Jericho. This included all children.

Can God commands rape and make it therefore ok?

God's command is God's command.

If not then the commands of God don't change whaty morality already is and killing babies can be justified sometimes.

Who said that the commands don't change?

I would say the former is more moral than the genocide of innocents for no good reason.

The former, being abortion, is "more moral" than the killing of what innocents? How are aborted babies different than others?

My response was to the accusations of the OP. We cannot use the OT to justify abortion.

 

[solarwave]

Yes. God defines sin, not man. In the OT God commanded the Hebrews to kill all the inhabitants of the cities they conquered, such as Jericho. This included all children.

So morality is relative? I think things such as morality and logic are above God or part of God that God cannot change. Morality becomes meaningless in the Christian sense if it can just be changed.

God commands goodness because it is good; Goodness isn't good because God commands it.

God's command is God's command.

So God could command rape?

Who said that the commands don't change?

That was the point I was making.

The former, being abortion, is "more moral" than the killing of what innocents? How are aborted babies different than others?

Be aware that I said without good reason. In the case of abortion it is for the right of the mother for her body not to be used against her will. In the case of murdering thousands of babies already born, what point is there?

My response was to the accusations of the OP. We cannot use the OT to justify abortion.

By the way I'm not trying to say that God is immoral or that the OT proves abortion is ok, just that the OT writers got it wrong.

 

[Yarddog]

So morality is relative? I think things such as morality and logic are above God or part of God that God cannot change. Morality becomes meaningless in the Christian sense if it can just be changed.

God commands goodness because it is good; Goodness isn't good because God commands it.

Then it was good to kill all the people of Jericho, including women and children. Agreed.

So God could command rape?

Did he command the Israelites to rape?

That was the point I was making.

Then you agree that what God commanded the Israelites to do has changed.

Be aware that I said without good reason. In the case of abortion it is for the right of the mother for her body not to be used against her will.

I can certainly understand that no woman should be used against her will, but at the same time, the baby has those same rights, regardless of what happened to the mother.

In the case of murdering thousands of babies already born, what point is there?

The Jews were under a law different than what we are under.

By the way I'm not trying to say that God is immoral or that the OT proves abortion is ok, just that the OT writers got it wrong.

I don't think that any scriptural writer got anything wrong. I think that we fail to grasp what it is saying.

 

[Grey Wanderer]

Did he command the Israelites to rape?

Exactly! Did he command ANYONE to rape? Ever?

 

[SullivanZ]

Tell us where the killing of innocent babies is justified using the NT. Tell us where the killing of any baby is justified without a command from God.

How do you relate abortion, a mother having her own baby killed, to the command to kill the children of pagans in the land which God gave Israel?

How do you know that God is not commanding abortion in this day and age? You assume He ordered killings before, so why not now?

 

[SullivanZ]

My response was to the accusations of the OP. We cannot use the OT to justify abortion.

Not only can we, we must.

The Old Testament is crystal clear that killing children is not *always* a bad thing. Thus, abortion is not always a bad thing either, despite what Bible people may try to tell us.

 

[Yarddog]

Not only can we, we must.

The Old Testament is crystal clear that killing children is not *always* a bad thing. Thus, abortion is not always a bad thing either, despite what Bible people may try to tell us.

You obviously do not understand the OT. Nothing in the OT can be used to justify abortion. If you think so, break down the verses in question and show us how they may apply.

 

[Yarddog]

How do you know that God is not commanding abortion in this day and age? You assume He ordered killings before, so why not now?

Show me the verse where he ordered those who believed in him to kill their own children.

 

[SullivanZ]

You obviously do not understand the OT. Nothing in the OT can be used to justify abortion. If you think so, break down the verses in question and show us how they may apply.

Conquer of Canaan. The slaughter of the many Ites, not limited to the Midianites and Amalekites, to name a few.

Psalm 137: 9.

I'm sure there's more, but that is more than sufficient to the point.

And, dear friend, how do I "not understand" the Old Testament? :/ I can clearly reference numerous instances which CLEARLY endorse the wholesale slaugher of innocent babies and infants. This does not mean I don't understand it. Perhaps it is you who is lacking in understanding, seeing as how you so brazenly write off those of show from scripture that God is pro-infant death.

Besides, we all know infants go straight to heaven anyway.

 

[SullivanZ]

Show me the verse where he ordered those who believed in him to kill their own children.

Sure.

Abraham was ordered to kill Isaac.

The End.

 

[Lord Herdsetk]

Sure.

Abraham was ordered to kill Isaac.

The End.

Oh crap, there goes the Jewish and Christian faith. Isaac died. Islam is automatically correct.

 

[Yarddog]

Sure.

Abraham was ordered to kill Isaac.

The End.

But God stopped him and then sent his Son to die in his place.

 

[Lord Herdsetk]

Context helps

Why did God tell Abraham to sacrifice Isaac?

 

[AndyBogdan]

Well, these verses state we can see God taking care to create a body, knit it together, and even plan out our days.

Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you; I appointed you a prophet to the nations. Jer 1:5

For you formed my inward parts; you knitted me together in my mother’s womb. Ps 139:13

Your eyes saw my unformed substance; in your book were written, every one of them, the days that were formed for me, when as yet there was none of them. Ps 139:16

Clearly God cares about His children. Are we to kill someone God is knitting together in the womb because taking care of the child is inconvenient? If we do that to a 5 year old, is that not murder? If God loves this unborn baby, what makes that killing not murder?