Attack on Israelis in Jerusalem

[dcalling]

I never understood this; God picking a favorite people doesn't sound very omniscient to me.

I don't either, but God has its uses. Part of the reason I changed from atheism to Christianity is the impossibility of the existence of Israel.

And besides that, his favorite people is very good at obeying God's commands and keep God's words, any other tiny tribe hated by many and exiled out their country survived till today and went back?

 

[LoveBeingAMuslimah]

Any suggestions? They chased us all over the civilized world for a couple of thousands of years. It only made sense to try to return to the place of our ancestors who lived there for thousands of years.

But why make the ones who helped you historically pay for the sins of those who harmed you historically (and actually use those "others" to make the helpers pay)?

"Every honest Jew who knows the history of his people cannot but feel a deep sense of gratitude to Islam, which has protected the Jews for fifty generations, while the Christian world persecuted the Jews and tried many times ‘by the sword’ to get them to abandon their faith." -Uri Avnery, a Jewish atheist, wrote this in Muhammad's Sword in 2006.

 

[LoAmmi]

I never understood this; God picking a favorite people doesn't sound very omniscient to me.

Favorite isn't the right term, but I understand the confusion most people have with the concept.

 

[Zoness]

I don't either, but God has its uses. Part of the reason I changed from atheism to Christianity is the impossibility of the existence of Israel.

That....would be like the last reason I'd convert to Christianity but moving forward:

And besides that, his favorite people is very good at obeying God's commands and keep God's words, any other tiny tribe hated by many and exiled out their country survived till today and went back?

As far as I understood it, the Jews frequently broke the commandments and were punished for it so they can't be that perfect. Maybe LoAmmi can confirm? What is consensus for why Israel exists?

Favorite isn't the right term, but I understand the confusion most people have with the concept.

At any rate I'm staunchly on the "secularism is best-ism" side that Jane expressed several pages ago.

 

[Jane_the_Bane]

Zionism was founded by secular Jews, and their motives would have been enough to establish a Jewish state. Chiefly, the desire to escape the antisemitism they experienced in the diaspora.

While this is true, the same cannot be said about the current situation: belligerent blockheads on both sides of the fence are pretty much religious hardliners, building their arguments on a fatal mixture of nationalism and religion.

 

[LoAmmi]

At any rate I'm staunchly on the "secularism is best-ism" side that Jane expressed several pages ago.

I can try to answer your other question when not on my phone but this one I will address now.


If secularism were some kind of moral magic bullet, maybe I could agree. But it isnt. I'm betting the percentage of secular jerks compared to religious ones to be roughly the same. What I wish is for Jews to embrace the ethics that the sages have taught for thousands of years. If you wish to dismiss their wisdom because they were religious, then you are judging people based upon one aspect instead of thr merit of their words. Kind of the same thing secular people accuse the religious of.

 

[Jane_the_Bane]

If secularism were some kind of moral magic bullet, maybe I could agree. But it isnt. I'm betting the percentage of secular jerks compared to religious ones to be roughly the same. What I wish is for Jews to embrace the ethics that the sages have taught for thousands of years. If you wish to dismiss their wisdom because they were religious, then you are judging people based upon one aspect instead of thr merit of their words. Kind of the same thing secular people accuse the religious of.

Sure: if you excluded religious fanatism from the equation, you'd still be left with other irrational sentiments such as rampant nationalism etc.

What makes religion such a catastrophic factor in this particular conflict, however, is its close tie with specific holy sites and territorial claims: here, a whole war can break loose just because someone visits the wrong place. Here, illegal settlers encroach upon foreign territory by pointing to their scriptures and insisting that all the land is theirs by divine fiat, anyway. Here, muslims feel not only threatened as inhabitants of the region, but think that their religion and its holy sites are at stake as well.

I am not saying religion is bad, or Judaism/Islam are bad. But what we are currently seeing in the Israel/Palestine conflict very much revolves around altogether avoidable contentions rooted deeply in religion.

 

[LoAmmi]

Most Israelis are secular though. Jewish cemeteries are having to contend with so many Jews having tattoos which have historically disqualified someone from being buried within. We constantly lose people to atheism or "spirituality". Culturally people are holding onto Jewish sites and the like, but you are mistaking culture for religion. The culture isn't going to go away even with secularism.

 

[Zeek]

G-d bless, watch over and guide Israel in 2015.

 

[smaneck]

Most Israelis are secular though. Jewish cemeteries are having to contend with so many Jews having tattoos which have historically disqualified someone from being buried within.

In 1998 there was a very sad case of a 15 year old Russian Jew killed in a terrorist attack in Jerusalem. Because his maternal grandmother was not a Jew he was refused a burial in a Jewish cemetery, although he had lived his entire life as a Jew. The Christians would only bury him if his family agreed to Christian ceremony. Finally the Baha'is agreed to have him buried in their own cemetery.

 

[smaneck]

More lies. There was never a time when 3 religions lived side by side in peace. Actually, the followers of Christ massacred Jewish population of Jerusalem during the Crusades.

Actually, they were pretty much living side by side in peace *before* the Crusaders came.

 

[smaneck]

The Nakba of Palestinians in 1948 was wrong. A Nakba of Israelis at any point in the future would be equally wrong..

This!

 

[smaneck]

The foreigner also must respect our laws and religion and way of life. These foreigners will not even acknowledge our existence.

The Palestinians were not 'foreigners' to begin with. This was their land. And the PLO acknowledged the existence of Israel back in the 1970's. So what did Israel do? They had MOSSAD fund an organization called HAMAS to oppose the PLO.
Now they have a Frankenstein monster on their hands of their own making.

 

[LoAmmi]

In 1998 there was a very sad case of a 15 year old Russian Jew killed in a terrorist attack in Jerusalem. Because his maternal grandmother was not a Jew he was refused a burial in a Jewish cemetery, although he had lived his entire life as a Jew. The Christians would only bury him if his family agreed to Christian ceremony. Finally the Baha'is agreed to have him buried in their own cemetery.

By Jewish law he wasn't a Jew. Simply living as a Jew doesn't make you a Jew. Sadly, he probably could have converted very easily if his father was Jewish but might not have thought it necessary.

 

[smaneck]

By Jewish law he wasn't a Jew. Simply living as a Jew doesn't make you a Jew. Sadly, he probably could have converted very easily if his father was Jewish but might not have thought it necessary.

Thing is, not all Jews are Orthodox yet it is the Orthodox alone who get to determine who is or is not a Jew in Israel. As far as Reform or Conservative Judaism is concerned he *was* a Jew.

 

[LoAmmi]

Thing is, not all Jews are Orthodox yet it is the Orthodox alone who get to determine who is or is not a Jew in Israel. As far as Reform or Conservative Judaism is concerned he *was* a Jew.

Conservative, no. Conservative go with the Orthodox usually on that measure. The Reform would consider him one, but that also throws away thousands of years of tradition.

 

[smaneck]

Conservative, no. Conservative go with the Orthodox usually on that measure. The Reform would consider him one, but that also throws away thousands of years of tradition.

Most American Jews are Reform. Define them out of existence and you alienate Israel's greatest allies.

 

[LoAmmi]

Most American Jews are Reform. Define them out of existence and you alienate Israel's greatest allies.

When did I define them out of anything? Is it not objectively true that Reform goes against thousands of years of tradition?

 

[smaneck]

When did I define them out of anything? Is it not objectively true that Reform goes against thousands of years of tradition?

It is not you whose defining them out of existence, it is the Chief Rabbinate of Israel.

 

[LoAmmi]

It is not you whose defining them out of existence, it is the Chief Rabbinate of Israel.

I won't disagree. The Orthodox hold too much power, in my opinion. I can see the cemeteries they directly hold being under their power, but others should have their own with their own rules.