Atoms

[tansy]

Just curious....do you think there are a finite number of atoms in the universe? That is, do you think the number of atoms in existence at any one time remains (more or less) constant? Or does the number of atoms keep increasing?

IF the universe is finite (I don't know if it is or not), would that mean there would only be enough 'room' for an optimum number of atoms?

 

[TemperateSeaIsland]

I would go for finite and decreasing (Through fusion in stars).

 

[Agonaces of Susa]

Just curious....do you think there are a finite number of atoms in the universe?

No.

The universe is infinite.

"... the host of heaven cannot be numbered...." -- Jeremiah 33:22

Therefore atoms are infinite.

"... his [Democritus's] ... atoms are infinite in number ... and [he] compares them to the motes of air which we see in shafts of light coming through windows ...." -- Aristotle, philosopher, On the Soul, 350 B.C.

"Now his [Democritus's] principal doctrines were these. ... That the atoms were infinite both in magnitude and number, and were borne about through the universe in endless revolutions. And that thus they produced all the combinations that exist; fire, water, air, and earth; for that all these things are only combinations of certain atoms...." -- Diogenes Laertius, historian, 3rd century

That is, do you think the number of atoms in existence at any one time remains (more or less) constant? Or does the number of atoms keep increasing?

Impossible to determine but most likely static in number: infinite.

IF the universe is finite (I don't know if it is or not), would that mean there would only be enough 'room' for an optimum number of atoms?

Impossbile to determine. It's possible that an infinite number of atoms could be packed in a finite amount of space: such as is theorized in black holes. I don't believe that but it's possible in Faery Land or in Meinong's Jungle so it's certainly possible in our universe.

 

[Chesterton]

"... the host of heaven cannot be numbered...." -- Jeremiah 33:22

Therefore atoms are infinite.

"O Jerusalem...how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings,..."

Therefore, God is a chicken.

 

[PhoceanCity]

I would go with TemperateSeaIsland for a finite and declining number of atoms and with Chesterton for God being a chicken

 

[tansy]

I would go with TemperateSeaIsland for a finite and declining number of atoms and with Chesterton for God being a chicken

LOL

So new atoms aren't coming into existence? I thought atoms were fromed by the coming together of various bits and bobs? (Haha! Enjoy my technical and scientific terminology!!!!!)

 

[Friendly.Atheist]

The number of atoms is irrelevant. Atoms can be divided or combined. A better question I think would be "Is there infinite mass/energy in the universe?"

 

[tansy]

The number of atoms is irrelevant. Atoms can be divided or combined. A better question I think would be "Is there infinite mass/energy in the universe?"

Ah, yes. But perhaps that's what I was kind of wondering. Question is, are atoms still forming today? And if so, are they forming at the same rate they're disintegrating, decaying, whatever? Notwithstanding man-made intervention.

 

[Agonaces of Susa]

So new atoms aren't coming into existence?

Question is, are atoms still forming today?

In fact they are, just as Fred Hoyle predicted (based upon the earlier work of Mochus of Sidon).

"The idea that hydrogen atoms might naturally be coming into existence was first made popular by astronomer Fred Hoyle who suggested the process might be occuring in the space between stars." -- Richard Milton, writer, 1992

Solar Flare Surprise: Stream Of Perfectly Intact Hydrogen Atoms Detected

The event occurred on Dec. 5, 2006. A large sunspot rounded the sun’s eastern limb and with little warning it exploded. On the "Richter scale" of flares, which ranks X1 as a big event, the blast registered X9, making it one of the strongest flares of the past 30 years.

NASA managers braced themselves. Such a ferocious blast usually produces a blizzard of high-energy particles dangerous to both satellites and astronauts. An hour later they arrived, but they were not the particles researchers expected.

NASA’s twin Solar TErrestrial RElations Observatory (STEREO) spacecraft made the discovery: "It was a burst of hydrogen atoms," says Mewaldt. "No other elements were present, not even helium (the sun’s second-most abundant atomic species). Pure hydrogen streamed past the spacecraft for a full 90 minutes."

Next came 30 minutes of quiet. The burst subsided and STEREO’s particle counters returned to low levels. The event seemed to be over when a second wave of particles enveloped the spacecraft. These were the "broken atoms" flares are supposed to produce—protons and heavier ions such as helium, oxygen and iron. "Better late than never," he says.

At first, this unprecedented sequence of events baffled scientists, but now Mewaldt and colleagues believe they’re getting to the bottom of the mystery.

First, how did the hydrogen atoms resist destruction?

"They didn’t," says Mewaldt. "We believe they began their journey to Earth in pieces, as protons and electrons. Before they escaped the sun’s atmosphere, however, some of the protons captured an electron, forming intact hydrogen atoms.

***

And if so, are they forming at the same rate they're disintegrating, decaying, whatever?

Impossible to determine but the answer is obviously yes if you're askin me.

 

[necroforest]

I'll go with decreasing: The Sun (and every one of the billions and billions of stars out there) go through nuclear fusion, which involves two hydrogen atoms fusing into a single helium atom; so you go from two distinct atoms to one.

Also, I'm with the above poster that a more appropriate question is about conservation of mass/energy.

 

[Agonaces of Susa]

I'm with the above poster that a more appropriate question is about conservation of mass/energy.

Conservation of mass/energy says that mass/energy cannot be created or destroyed. Thus the Big Bang is a violation of supposed fundamental laws of physics.

However, this is irrelevant because the thread is about atoms not mass/energy.

 

[Tenka]

What happens to the atoms pulled into black holes?

 

[Agonaces of Susa]

What happens to the atoms pulled into black holes?

Nothing. Black holes are imaginary.

"...the 'Schwarzschild singularities' do not exist in physical reality." -- Albert Einstein, mathematician, 1939

"Even mainstream scientists admit that at singularities the ‘laws of physics’ break down. It would be more accurate to say that their own theories break down." -- David Pratt, natural philosopher, 2005

"Physics is first and foremost the study of objects. Without objects, we can have no Physics. The black hole does not belong in Physics because it is not a physical object. It is, rather, an irrational concept and as such does not even belong in Philosophy. The astronomers should not be pointing their telescopes to the skies in search of black holes. They should be reading the definition of the word object." -- Bil Gaede, physicist, April 2009

 

[LightHorseman]

Hawking radiation proves new matter comes into existance all the time. Whether the new matter is produced faster than the rate at which atoms fuse in stars, I could'nt begin to guess.

 

[LightHorseman]

Nothing. Black holes are imaginary.

Astronomers have identified numerous stellar black hole candidates, and have also found evidence of supermassive black holes at the center of galaxies. After observing the motion of nearby stars for 16 years, in 2008 astronomers found compelling evidence that a supermassive black hole of more than 4 million solar masses is located near the Sagittarius A* region in the center of the Milky Way galaxy.

Black hole - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Agonaces of Susa]

Astronomers have identified numerous stellar black hole candidates, and have also found evidence of supermassive black holes at the center of galaxies. After observing the motion of nearby stars for 16 years, in 2008 astronomers found compelling evidence that a supermassive black hole of more than 4 million solar masses is located near the Sagittarius A* region in the center of the Milky Way galaxy.

Black hole - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Pseudoscience masquerading as science fiction.

Wikipedia is not a scientific or reliable source.

Fairy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

No black hole has ever been observed because by definition it's impossible.

Black holes do not exist in physical reality.

"...the 'Schwarzschild singularities' do not exist in physical reality." -- Albert Einstein, mathematician, 1939

Schwarzschild, K., On The Gravitational Field of a Mass Point According to Einstein's Theory, Jan 1916

Droste, J., The Field of a Single Centre In Einstein's Theory of Gravitation, and the Motion of a Particle In That Field, May 1916

Brillouin, M., The Singular Points of Einstein's Universe, Jan 1923

Merritt, D., Ferraresse, L., and Joseph, C.L., No Supermassive Black Hole in M33?, Science, Volume 293, Number 5532, Pages 1116-1118, Aug 2001

Antoci, S., David Hilbert and the Origin of the 'Schwarzschild Solution', Oct 2003

Thornhill, W., Black Holes Tear Logic Apart, Mar 2004

Meet the Indian who took on Steven Hawking, Rediff.Com, Aug 2004

Crothers, C.J., The Black Hole, the Big Bang, and Modern Physics, Dec 2004

Overbye, D., About Those Fearsome Black Holes? Never Mind, The New York Times, Jul 2004

Hogan, J., Hawking Cracks Black Hole Paradox, New Scientist, Jul 2004

Hogan, J., Hawking Concedes Black Hole Bet, New Scientist, Jul 2004

Hawking To Dispel Black Hole 'Myth', Guardian, Jul 2004

Arp, H.C., Astronomy By Press Release - News From A Black Hole, 2004

Schild, R.E., Leiter, D.J., and Robertson, S.L., Observations Supporting the Existence of an Intrinsic Magnetic Moment Inside the Central Compact Object Within the Quasar Q0957+561, Astrophysical Journal, 132, Pages 420-432, Feb 2006

Kiselev, V.V., Logunov, A.A., and Mestvirishvili, M.A., Holes: Theoretical Prediction or Fantasy?, Physics of Particles and Nuclei, Volume 37, Number 3, Pages 317-320, May 2006

Sample, I., US Team's Quasar Probe Sinks Black Hole Theory, The Age, Jul 2006

No Black Holes After All, Harvard-Smithsonian Center For Astrophysics, Aug 2006

Black Holes Light Up, Science Daily, Sep 2006

Battersby, S., Do Black Holes Really Exist?, New Scientist, Jun 2007

Keim, B., Black Holes Don't Exist Say Physicists, Wired, Jun 2007

Schild, R.E., Leiter, D.J., and Robertson, S.L., Direct Microlensing-Reverbation Observations of the Intrinsic Magnetic Structure of Active Galactic Nuclei In Different Spectral States: A Tale of Two Quasars, Astronomical Journal, 135, Pages 947-956, Feb 2008

Folger, T., Einstein Didn't Grok His Own Revolution, Discover, Mar 2008

Schild, R.E., and Leiter, D.J., Black Hole or MECO? Decided by a Thin Luminous Ring Structure Deep Within Quasar Q0957, Astrophysics, Jun 2008

Thornhill, W., The Black Hole at the Heart of Astronomy, Mar 2009

 

[LightHorseman]

Random citations will come back to bite you. Several of those you cite acknowledge black holes as a reality.

 

[Agonaces of Susa]

Random citations will come back to bite you. Several of those you cite acknowledge black holes as a reality.

No. They don't. Because they contradict theoretical black holes.

 

[LightHorseman]

No. They don't. Because they contradict theoretical black holes.

Do black holes really exist?

• 22:16 18 June 2007 by Stephen Battersby

Black holes might not exist - or at least not as scientists have imagined, cloaked by an impenetrable "event horizon". A controversial new calculation could abolish the horizon, and so solve a troubling paradox in physics.

From a cite you cited. I'm sure this is what most of them will say, not that Black holes don't exist, but rather, that our initial understanding of them was flawed. Which is generally accepted fact, ever since Hawking Radiation came out.

So, wanna play the citation list game? Who's list is bigger...

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2. ^ Michell, J. (1784). "On the Means of Discovering the Distance, Magnitude, &c. of the Fixed Stars, in Consequence of the Diminution of the Velocity of Their Light, in Case Such a Diminution Should be Found to Take Place in any of Them, and Such Other Data Should be Procured from Observations, as Would be Farther Necessary for That Purpose". Phil. Trans. R. Soc. (London) 74: 35–57. http://www.jstor.org/pss/106576.
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22. ^ For a discussion of these numerical simulations see Berger, Beverly K. (2002). "Numerical Approaches to Spacetime Singularities". Living Rev. Relativity 5. http://www.livingreviews.org/lrr-2002-1. Retrieved 2007-08-04.
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Shall I keep going?

 

[Tenka]

Black holes do not exist in physical reality.

Hogan, J., Hawking Cracks Black Hole Paradox, New Scientist, Jul 2004

Hogan, J., Hawking Concedes Black Hole Bet, New Scientist, Jul 2004

Hawking To Dispel Black Hole 'Myth', Guardian, Jul 2004

These links do not feature Hawking saying black holes do not exist. And several of your other links have black holes as a central part of a hypothesis.

Do you have any discriminating criteria when selecting great wads of links to support a claim?