Atlanta Disctrict Attorneys refuse to prosecute women under new abortion law.

[Nithavela]

Roe v. Wade is unconstitutional!

Anything else you want to deem unconstitutional while you are at it?

 

[Desk trauma]

Because even if we do reverse Roe v. Wade it's not going to stop abortion, because the underlying issues will still be there, and all that will have been accomplished is criminalizing women for being women.

Additionally it must be said that abortion wasn’t illegal at the federal level prior to Roe, it was a state issue. Even if Roe is struck down in its entirety unless there is some broad ruling against abortion is put in its place, even less likely than a simple overturn, the issue will fall back on the states.

 

[Sparagmos]

Would you cite this info in a founding document, please?

Ultrasound technology has proven otherwise! I saw my daughter's fingers at 8 weeks of pregnancy. The fetus is really not a blob of tissue!

I’m not claiming it appears in a founding document. Abortion isn’t mentioned at all in founding documents. If you are going to make claims about the views of the founding fathers, you should already have studied the history. Please see below, at least 2 of these 3 sources are “pro-life.” Quickening, not conception, was when they believed life began and abortion before that time was legal and quite common.

American Creation: The Founding Fathers and Abortion in Colonial America

Is abortion constitutional? Let’s ask the founders - Family Policy Institute of Washington

lifeissues | The Founding Fathers and the Right to Life

 

[Deborah D]

I’m not claiming it appears in a founding document. Abortion isn’t mentioned at all in founding documents. If you are going to make claims about the views of the founding fathers, you should already have studied the history. Please see below, at least 2 of these 3 sources are “pro-life.” Quickening, not conception, was when they believed life began and abortion before that time was legal and quite common.

American Creation: The Founding Fathers and Abortion in Colonial America

Is abortion constitutional? Let’s ask the founders - Family Policy Institute of Washington

lifeissues | The Founding Fathers and the Right to Life

Thank you for these links. It seems that Blackstone had it wrong about quickening. Like I said, ultrasound technology has provided info they didn't have.... Plus, if "quickening" was the standard for when life begins in the 1700s, why was abortion not legal until Roe?? Doesn't make sense.

Edit: Here's the conclusion from the first article you cited.

Laws in American states criminalized abortion from the beginning. For example, Virginia law outlawed the practice of using “potion” to “unlawfully destroy the child within her [womb].” These laws were crafted by many of the same individuals who framed the Constitution.​

It is therefore inconceivable that the framers intended constitutional protections for abortion as a “fundamental right.” Indeed, the framers believed the opposite. From their perspective, the unborn child has a fundamental right to life, a right that would be infringed by an abortion that ends his or her life.​

A “fundamental right to abortion” does not exist in the Constitution or its amendments. It is the height of intellectual dishonesty to argue that the authors of the Constitution and its amendments intended to protect abortion under some vague and unwritten “right to privacy.” That so many courts and judges have for so long upheld a legal doctrine antagonistic to the Constitution reveals the rogue nature of the modern judiciary.​

 

[Sparagmos]

Thank you for these. I've only studied our founding documents, as well as writings from the Founders.

You’re welcome! I’d encourage you to study the history of abortion. In biblical times quickening was also recognized as the beginning of life in the womb. Abortion before quickening has been mostly legal since the beginning of time.

It seems that Blackstone had it wrong about quickening. Like I said, ultrasound technology has provided info they didn't have....

As far as I recall they didn’t believe the soul entered the fetus until quickening. I don’t think personhood is a scientific concept so much as a legal one.

Plus, if "quickening" was the standard for when life begins in the 1700s, why was abortion not legal until Roe?? Doesn't make sense.

It was made illegal in the mid 19th century (state by state.) some history from Wikipedia:

“Criminalization of abortion accelerated from the late 1860s, through the efforts of concerned legislators, doctors, and the American Medical Association.[22] In 1873, Anthony Comstock created the New York Society for the Suppression of Vice, an institution dedicated to supervising the morality of the public. Later that year, Comstock successfully influenced the United States Congress to pass the Comstock Law, which made it illegal to deliver through the U.S. mail any "obscene, lewd, or lascivious" material. It also prohibited producing or publishing information pertaining to the procurement of abortion or the prevention of conception or venereal disease, even to medical students.[23] The production, publication, importation, and distribution of such materials was suppressed under the Comstock Law as being obscene, and similar prohibitions were passed by 24 of the 37 states.[24]

In 1900, abortion was a felony in every state. Some states included provisions allowing for abortion in limited circumstances, generally to protect the woman's life or to terminate pregnancies arising from rape or incest.[25] Abortions continued to occur, however, and became increasingly available. The American Birth Control League was founded by Margaret Sanger in 1921 to promote the founding of birth control clinics and enable women to control their own fertility.[26]

By the 1930s, licensed physicians performed an estimated 800,000 abortions a year.[27]”

Note that the same people pushing to criminalize abortion also wanted to criminalize contraception and sex education. They considered basic sex education to be obscene. Women died in childbirth all of the time, marital rape was legal and common, most abortions were performed on married women, and these men wanted to force women to have baby after baby, risking their lives each time. A lot of this was fueled by a fear that immigrants were reproducing faster than non-immigrants. I don’t think that preserving life was the motivating factor for these men.

 

[Deborah D]

You’re welcome! I’d encourage you to study the history of abortion. In biblical times quickening was also recognized as the beginning of life in the womb. Abortion before quickening has been mostly legal since the beginning of time.


As far as I recall they didn’t believe the soul entered the fetus until quickening. I don’t think personhood is a scientific concept so much as a legal one.



It was made illegal in the mid 19th century (state by state.) some history from Wikipedia:

“Criminalization of abortion accelerated from the late 1860s, through the efforts of concerned legislators, doctors, and the American Medical Association.[22] In 1873, Anthony Comstock created the New York Society for the Suppression of Vice, an institution dedicated to supervising the morality of the public. Later that year, Comstock successfully influenced the United States Congress to pass the Comstock Law, which made it illegal to deliver through the U.S. mail any "obscene, lewd, or lascivious" material. It also prohibited producing or publishing information pertaining to the procurement of abortion or the prevention of conception or venereal disease, even to medical students.[23] The production, publication, importation, and distribution of such materials was suppressed under the Comstock Law as being obscene, and similar prohibitions were passed by 24 of the 37 states.[24]

In 1900, abortion was a felony in every state. Some states included provisions allowing for abortion in limited circumstances, generally to protect the woman's life or to terminate pregnancies arising from rape or incest.[25] Abortions continued to occur, however, and became increasingly available. The American Birth Control League was founded by Margaret Sanger in 1921 to promote the founding of birth control clinics and enable women to control their own fertility.[26]

By the 1930s, licensed physicians performed an estimated 800,000 abortions a year.[27]”

Note that the same people pushing to criminalize abortion also wanted to criminalize contraception and sex education. They considered basic sex education to be obscene. Women died in childbirth all of the time, marital rape was legal and common, most abortions were performed on married women, and these men wanted to force women to have baby after baby, risking their lives each time. A lot of this was fueled by a fear that immigrants were reproducing faster than non-immigrants. I don’t think that preserving life was the motivating factor for these men.

This Wikipedia article contradicts the first article you cited, which says this:

Laws in American states criminalized abortion from the beginning. For example, Virginia law outlawed the practice of using “potion” to “unlawfully destroy the child within her [womb].” These laws were crafted by many of the same individuals who framed the Constitution.​

It is therefore inconceivable that the framers intended constitutional protections for abortion as a “fundamental right.” Indeed, the framers believed the opposite. From their perspective, the unborn child has a fundamental right to life, a right that would be infringed by an abortion that ends his or her life.
​

I'm much more inclined to believe this article than Wikipedia, which can have questionable sources.

 

[Desk trauma]

Another thing to keep in mind when contemplating a post Roe US, abortion would remain legal for the majority of the US population if it were made a state issue. Do your plans include securing state boarders to prevent passage to states where it remains legal? Prosecution upon return?

 

[Sparagmos]

This Wikipedia article contradicts the first article you cited, which says this:

Laws in American states criminalized abortion from the beginning. For example, Virginia law outlawed the practice of using “potion” to “unlawfully destroy the child within her [womb].” These laws were crafted by many of the same individuals who framed the Constitution.​

It is therefore inconceivable that the framers intended constitutional protections for abortion as a “fundamental right.” Indeed, the framers believed the opposite. From their perspective, the unborn child has a fundamental right to life, a right that would be infringed by an abortion that ends his or her life.
​

I'm much more inclined to believe this article than Wikipedia, which can have questionable sources.

Abortion was legal before quickening. It wasn’t considered a child before then. That has been my stance all along. Feel free to dispute specific Wikipedia sources.

 

[mala]

Anything else you want to deem unconstitutional while you are at it?

i would like to declare the following unconstitutional: beets, twizzlers, the third monday of every month, people who are right handed, the word bro, people who think socks and sandals don't go together, and the entire cast(s) of everything ever shown on hbo since it's not tv what is it????

 

[Nithavela]

i would like to declare the following unconstitutional: beets, twizzlers, the third monday of every month, people who are right handed, the word bro, people who think socks and sandals don't go together, and the entire cast(s) of everything ever shown on hbo since it's not tv what is it????

Sustained!

 

[jayem]

If these people will not uphold and enforce the LAW then they need to find a new line of work.

When Kim Davis, the county clerk in KY refused to issue marriage licenses to same-sex couples—in direct violation of the SCOTUS ruling—I recall conservatives hailing her as heroic for standing up for her beliefs.

 

[jayem]

I don't like it because it's based on a legal fiction, where in the Bill of Rights is there an inherent right to privacy.

It’s covered in the 9th Amendment:

“The enumeration of certain rights shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.”

This is an instruction to the courts. Just because a right isn’t explicitly stated, doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. And such unenumerated rights belong to the people—not the states.

 

[Ana the Ist]

District attorneys from across metro Atlanta say they won't prosecute women for abortions



Some, such as Dekalb County's D.A., are saying they won't prosecute anyone:



Thoughts?

Good.

 

[Ana the Ist]

When Kim Davis, the county clerk in KY refused to issue marriage licenses to same-sex couples—in direct violation of the SCOTUS ruling—I recall conservatives hailing her as heroic for standing up for her beliefs.

That's different ...she's under an obligation.

Prosecutors are obligated to only press charges they believe they can convict on. If they don't believe they can obtain a conviction, they aren't obligated to press charges.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Deleted.

 

[TLK Valentine]

Good.

Which raises a question -- conservatives across the country are describing the current crop of abortion laws as "going too far" -- Pat Robertson, for example, and even Donald himself...

Everyone seems to be in agreement that these laws exist solely to go to SCOTUS in order to challenge Roe v Wade... so the question is.

Suppose SCOTUS upholds these draconian laws? What then?

 

[Ana the Ist]

Which raises a question -- conservatives across the country are describing the current crop of abortion laws as "going too far" -- Pat Robertson, for example, and even Donald himself...

Everyone seems to be in agreement that these laws exist solely to go to SCOTUS in order to challenge Roe v Wade... so the question is.

Suppose SCOTUS upholds these draconian laws? What then?

Then idiocy ensues. I'd say that about a generation or two of Christians sneaking around to quietly get their abortions and getting arrested for it might bring about reasonable changes.

 

[Desk trauma]

Suppose SCOTUS upholds these draconian laws? What then?

Let the state legislatures and the police/prosecutors who execute the laws they pass start kicking doors and making pariahs of themselves.

I’m sure Alabama is more than willing to loose billions from their economy, which has so much to spare, to stop children being murdered.

Money where your mouth is time.

 

[jayem]

No matter how restrictive the laws, women of means will always be able to get abortions. And not in back alleys. Even in the old days, most every decent-sized city had an OB-GYN who would perform a "menstrual extraction." If a woman missed her period, and not too long ago, she'd have this procedure done in the office. A quick D & C just to restart her periods. Could be expensive, but very private and discreet. As always, it's poor women who have problems.

 

[TLK Valentine]

Then idiocy ensues. I'd say that about a generation or two of Christians sneaking around to quietly get their abortions and getting arrested for it might bring about reasonable changes.

And since Christians (generally speaking) identify more strongly with the Republicans, the GOP has put their efforts into a measure which, if successful, will only shoot themselves in the foot.

It's "Repeal the ACA!" All over again. Will they ever learn?