Atheists: Why don't you steal, rape, pillage, etc?

HitchSlap · May 20, 2015

derGroßmütige said:
So your argument is that religions are a construct of government to create stablity and the governments have fooled the strong into not taking what they want?

In that case, we should all reject such foolish anti-evolutionary concepts and embrace a government of the strong crushing the weak, now that we have LIMITED resources on Earth and cannot afford the burdens on society.

When is the last time you read the news?

derGroßmütige · May 20, 2015

Conscious Z said:
The truth is that theft, murder and rape are not the norm among humans.

Nonsense. I agree on the INDIVIDUAL level there is a lot of risk for people. But we can do it in large groups not as individuals, and AT THAT LEVEL it has often been acceptable in non-Christian cultures. Like Japan taking tens of thousands of Korean "comfort women", Rome conquering other lands and taking their women as plunder, or the Vikings raping and looting.

Like why not blow up the Saudis, take all their oil for ourselves, maybe hand some out to the Russians/Chinese to appease them... or the Chinese who need more women (too many men) go into Vietnam which has an over-supply and conquer them and take millions of war brides... etc. etc.

derGroßmütige · May 20, 2015

HitchSlap said:
When is the last time you read the news?

Ad Hominem is a sign of an inferior mind.

Conscious Z · May 20, 2015

derGroßmütige said:
Nonsense. I agree on the INDIVIDUAL level there is a lot of risk for people. But we can do it in large groups not as individuals, and AT THAT LEVEL it has often been acceptable in non-Christian cultures. Like Japan taking tens of thousands of Korean "comfort women", Rome conquering other lands and taking their women as plunder, or the Vikings raping and looting.

This is consistent with the evolutionary morality narrative. The primary commitment produced by evolution is to in-group people, because those are the most essential to our survival. I don't see the rub here.

derGroßmütige said:
Like why not blow up the Saudis, take all their oil for ourselves, maybe hand some out to the Russians/Chinese to appease them... or the Chinese who need more women (too many men) go into Vietnam which has an over-supply and conquer them and take millions of war brides... etc. etc.

Because that would violate the conscience of too many voters. I've already explained that.

You seem to be hodge-podging a lot of different concepts. You are mixing up meta-ethics, rationality, and reasons for action. If you want to talk about justification for ethical claims generally, you should talk about meta-ethics. But the actual actions of people are irrelevant to that discussion. There is nothing we derive about what we ought to do from what people have done or what nature does.

Conscious Z · May 20, 2015

derGroßmütige said:
Ad Hominem is a sign of an inferior mind.

That, folks, is irony! Didn't you just call me ignorant a few posts ago? And aren't you insulting the other poster with this very comment?

derGroßmütige · May 20, 2015

HitchSlap said:
Why would you do that?

You seem to be chasing windmills, Don Quixote.

And again with the Ad Hominem is all you know when confronted with the truth. Why? Because I want your wife (in that scenario).

You tried to say "being good" and resisting pleasure had "benefits". And the example you gave was what the weak in an Evolutionary scenario would say, "I don't want a free-for-all world, because I'll lose and someone will take my wife from me". You are operating on fear in that scenario. The strong would enjoy and take as many women as they want and CRUSH the people who think like you do.

And it's also not sound logic. Me not killing you, taking/raping your wife NOW does not lower my own chances of having my wife raped. It'd be like saying if I don't break into your house, somehow that magically protects my house from being broken into by someone else.

derGroßmütige · May 20, 2015

Conscious Z said:
This is consistent with the evolutionary morality narrative. The primary commitment produced by evolution is to in-group people, because those are the most essential to our survival. I don't see the rub here.

Because that would violate the conscience of too many voters. I've already explained that.

So basically once everyone adheres to hedonism or atheism and gives up this strange religious "conscience" construct that only harms their own self-interest, then they should vote for a government that will take the most resources on their behalf.... conquer, pillage, loot, rape, etc.

Conscious Z said:
That, folks, is irony! Didn't you just call me ignorant a few posts ago? And aren't you insulting the other poster with this very comment?

No I didn't. And I didn't write an entire reply that's only purpose was to insult the other person (which you BOTH have done). I sometimes jokingly called them weak to show that they are essentially against Evolution because THEY are the weak ones that would be crushed by the strong. They aren't making the argument from the perspective of the strong who have everything to gain by a world of looting, raping, etc.

Conscious Z · May 20, 2015

derGroßmütige said:
So basically once everyone adheres to hedonism or atheism and gives up this strange religious "conscience" construct that only harms their own self-interest, then they should vote for a government that will take the most resources on their behalf.... conquer, pillage, loot, rape, etc.

A conscience isn't a construct. It isn't a conscious choice anymore than having dopamine released by your brain when you eat food is a conscious choice.

Also, you are making a crucial mistake: You keep confusing the explanation of why people act with ideas about how they should act. As I said, you keep confusing discussions about actions with discussions about meta-ethics. Me explaining to you why people act a certain way is not an endorsement or an explanation of how they should act.

derGroßmütige said:
No I didn't. And I didn't write an entire reply that's only purpose was to insult the other person (which you BOTH have done). I sometimes jokingly called them weak to show that they are essentially against Evolution because THEY are the weak ones that would be crushed by the strong. They aren't making the argument from the perspective of the strong who have everything to gain by a world of looting, raping, etc.

You did call me ignorant, actually. From post #10:

Ignorance, thy name is Conscious Z!

Where did I write an entire reply with the purpose of insulting you?

derGroßmütige · May 20, 2015

Conscious Z said:
You did call me ignorant, actually. From post #10:
Ignorance, thy name is Conscious Z!
Where did I write an entire reply with the purpose of insulting you?

If you follow the previous lines above it I was making a joke about how cultish you were being in your obedience to this "conscience" thing, saying things like that you "obey" it, as if it is a God commanding you. Which you do again below:

Conscious Z said:
A conscience isn't a construct. It isn't a conscious choice anymore than having dopamine released by your brain when you eat food is a conscious choice.

So if conscience is like dopamine, you are saying you are addicted to it like a drug and lack the ability to reject your conscience in favor of pleasure and self-interest? Why doesn't the logical benefits of taking what you want when you can get away with it come into affect?

And this chemical-based argument like dopamine is actually a TERRIBLE argument for you to use: most people experience a pleasurable adrenaline rush when stealing things (some get addicted, i.e. kleptomaniacs), when burning things down with arson (pyromaniacs), or the huge chemical rush of kidnapping and overpowering someone you desire who rejected you (and if people are patient and resourceful enough, kidnapping is easy, like those guys who built underground lairs and held women for decades). Or even of embracing vengeance against someone who has wronged you.

You're acting like you're enslaved to your conscience, and that it isn't just a construct of your Judeo-Christian culture. Or do you think ALL cultures have the same conscience? Newsflash: they don't.

HitchSlap · May 20, 2015

derGroßmütige said:
Ad Hominem is a sign of an inferior mind.

I was referencing a tale of someone who fights imagined foes, similar to your strawman argument that you're attempting to pursue.
A superior mind might have recognized that.

Conscious Z · May 20, 2015

derGroßmütige said:
If you follow the previous lines above it I was making a joke about how cultish you were being in your obedience to this "conscience" thing, saying things like that you "obey" it, as if it is a God commanding you. Which you do again below:

"Obeying" one's conscience is not like obeying a cult leader. Am I also cultish for obeying my body's desire to eat food or drink water?

derGroßmütige said:
So if conscience is like dopamine, you are saying you are addicted to it like a drug and lack the ability to reject your conscience in favor of pleasure and self-interest? Why doesn't the logical benefits of taking what you want when you can get away with it come into affect?

Because I would still be unhappy due to guilt. If I raped a person, I wouldn't be happy that I had sex. I would feel terrible. We can't control our emotions like that. That's simply not how it works. I cannot reject guilt the way I reject a false proposition.

derGroßmütige said:
And this chemical-based argument like dopamine is actually a TERRIBLE argument for you to use: most people experience a pleasurable adrenaline rush when stealing things (some get addicted, i.e. kleptomaniacs), when burning things down with arson (pyromaniacs), or the huge chemical rush of kidnapping and overpowering someone you desire who rejected you (and if people are patient and resourceful enough, kidnapping is easy, like those guys who built underground lairs and held women for decades). Or even of embracing vengeance against someone who has wronged you.

No, most people do not get such a rush. Most people who do those things may, but they are in the vast minority of people. That is likely a good explanation for why they do those things -- they get a rush from them, whereas most other people feel guilt from them.

derGroßmütige said:
You're acting like you're enslaved to your conscience, and that it isn't just a construct of your Judeo-Christian culture. Or do you think ALL cultures have the same conscience? Newsflash: they don't.

Where did I say that my conscience was not a product of my culture? I didn't.

I'm not exactly sure what point you're arguing for here. You seem to be arguing that I should behave in a way that I don't want to behave, and that I'm quite certain would make me less happy. Your reason for why I should behave that way is that there is no moral rule preventing me from doing so, but I regularly refrain from many things that aren't necessarily immoral simply because I have no desire to do them.

derGroßmütige · May 20, 2015

Conscious Z said:
"Obeying" one's conscience is not like obeying a cult leader. Am I also cultish for obeying my body's desire to eat food or drink water?

You are contradicting yourself again. Obeying one's conscience can often MEAN not taking that food or water you need to SURVIVE (and dying), away from someone else who needs it to survive. You may someday be in an emergency situation after an earthquake or volcano or whatever, and such a scenario may present itself. Obeying your "conscience" may kill yourself one day.

Conscious Z said:
Because I would still be unhappy due to guilt. If I raped a person, I wouldn't be happy that I had sex. I would feel terrible. We can't control our emotions like that. That's simply not how it works. I cannot reject guilt the way I reject a false proposition.

Many of us CAN control our emotions and over 10% of us are "sociopaths" or "psychopaths" and will feel absolutely ZERO remorse doing those things (and yet the vast majority of them DO NOT commit crimes because they either have religion or obey our Judeo-Christian culture's standards). Assume for a second that you are one of those people and then tell me why you shouldn't again. I understand apparently you are incapable of over-coming this "conscience" which you think (wrongly) is an evolutionarily installed feature in your body and not a cultural construct.

Conscious Z said:
Where did I say that my conscience was not a product of my culture? I didn't.

Conscious Z said:

"Obeying" one's conscience is not like obeying a cult leader. Am I also cultish for obeying my body's desire to eat food or drink water?

Click to expand...

Right there you just did it again in THIS VERY POST. You're saying it's part of your body as much as a desire to eat and not just a thought process that could be changed if you started thinking differently.

Conscious Z said:
I'm not exactly sure what point you're arguing for here. You seem to be arguing that I should behave in a way that I don't want to behave, and that I'm quite certain would make me less happy. Your reason for why I should behave that way is that there is no moral rule preventing me from doing so, but I regularly refrain from many things that aren't necessarily immoral simply because I have no desire to do them.

Well aren't you the little angel! Apparently atheists have no desire to steal, rape, get vengeance on those who wrong them, or any other thing that we "inferior" humans do. No desire to have your government secure more water, energy, and food resources during a crisis from weaker nations! No desire at all! Amazing! Maybe you've evolved into some new super species of enlightenment that can do no wrong.

HitchSlap · May 20, 2015

derGroßmütige said:
You are contradicting yourself again. Obeying one's conscience can often MEAN not taking that food or water you need to SURVIVE (and dying), away from someone else who needs it to survive. You may someday be in an emergency situation after an earthquake or volcano or whatever, and such a scenario may present itself. Obeying your "conscience" may kill yourself one day.

Many of us CAN control our emotions and over 10% of us are "sociopaths" or "psychopaths" and will feel absolutely ZERO remorse doing those things (and yet the vast majority of them DO NOT commit crimes because they either have religion or obey our Judeo-Christian culture's standards). Assume for a second that you are one of those people and then tell me why you shouldn't again. I understand apparently you are incapable of over-coming this "conscience" which you think (wrongly) is an evolutionarily installed feature in your body and not a cultural construct.

Right there you just did it again in THIS VERY POST. You're saying it's part of your body as much as a desire to eat and not just a thought process that could be changed if you started thinking differently.

Well aren't you the little angel! Apparently atheists have no desire to steal, rape, get vengeance on those who wrong them, or any other thing that we "inferior" humans do. No desire to have your government secure more water, energy, and food resources during a crisis from weaker nations! No desire at all! Amazing! Maybe you've evolved into some new super species of enlightenment that can do no wrong.

You mad, bro?
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derGroßmütige · May 20, 2015

HitchSlap said:
I was referencing a tale of someone who fights imagined foes, similar to your strawman argument that you're attempting to pursue.
A superior mind might have recognized that.

I'm not fighting imaginary foes. You're right in front of me.

What's weird is how Atheists are so defensive and so QUICK to try and prove how Judeo-Christian they are (culturally) and so quick to try and produce explanations that they have zero desire in their bodies to steal, rape, get revenge, get rich at other's expense, etc. when it makes ZERO logical sense. Instead you start talking about chemicals and odd excuses like that as if you are powerless over your own bodies which "make" you be good people and not that you've embraced Judeo-Christian values of the religion you hate so much.

Seriously if you lived in the Viking culture or a different culture and saw vast gold riches you can plunder, a beautiful woman you can take as your concubine, or even today if you can steal a car you want and get away with it, rob a bank, or kidnap someone you desire, etc. You are quick to claim you wouldn't do it.

It's like Atheists are so eager to prove how Christian they are (in a moral values way).

It baffles me because when I was Atheist (luckily I was only atheist a few months before I had a Road to Damascus event literally flash of light and God spoke to me) I did a lot of bad things, assaulted a lot of people, methodically planned to do bad things, etc. Again, these things are "bad" or "evil" in a Judeo-Christian sense, but if you are Atheist nothing is "evil". We're just animals then, and it's just that lion taking the enemy turf and raping the females, so why not a human raping the woman he wants and taking the stuff he wants, etc.

Yet Atheists act like missionaries trying to convert Christians away from their faith and towards Atheism as if it somehow imbues superior values. That's what really confuses me because I've seen the opposite in my own life. I could see if Atheists admit religion stabilizes society and they never try to push their views, but they don't they try and criticize believing religions as harmful and promote their own religion of dis-belief.

derGroßmütige · May 20, 2015

HitchSlap said:
You mad, bro?
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Yea, Atheists being so illogical is upsetting. I mean really.

I have to talk Cave Man language for you guys to get this concept: "Ugh, ugh, shiny car, me want!" "ME SMASH MAN AND TAKE CAR"
"You tell me why not?" "Why you say conscience?! ME SMASH CONSCIENCE! ME TAKE CAR!"

"ME WANT YOUR WIFE! ME SMASH YOU! TAKE WIFE! Why not me do that?!"

It's like you guys think working in a cubicle for 50 years then dying poor is so great. Instead of living like a king and taking what you want, when you want.

HitchSlap · May 20, 2015

derGroßmütige said:
Yea, Atheists being so illogical is upsetting. I mean really.

I have to talk Cave Man language for you guys to get this concept: "Ugh, ugh, shiny car, me want!" "ME SMASH MAN AND TAKE CAR"
"You tell me why not?" "Why you say conscience?! ME SMASH CONSCIENCE! ME TAKE CAR!"

"ME WANT YOUR WIFE! ME SMASH YOU! TAKE WIFE! Why not me do that?!"

It's like you guys think working in a cubicle for 50 years then dying poor is so great. Instead of living like a king and taking what you want, when you want.

You're funny.

HitchSlap · May 20, 2015

derGroßmütige said:
I'm not fighting imaginary foes. You're right in front of me.

What's weird is how Atheists are so defensive and so QUICK to try and prove how Judeo-Christian they are (culturally) and so quick to try and produce explanations that they have zero desire in their bodies to steal, rape, get revenge, get rich at other's expense, etc. when it makes ZERO logical sense. Instead you start talking about chemicals and odd excuses like that as if you are powerless over your own bodies which "make" you be good people and not that you've embraced Judeo-Christian values of the religion you hate so much.

Seriously if you lived in the Viking culture or a different culture and saw vast gold riches you can plunder, a beautiful woman you can take as your concubine, or even today if you can steal a car you want and get away with it, rob a bank, or kidnap someone you desire, etc. You are quick to claim you wouldn't do it.

It's like Atheists are so eager to prove how Christian they are (in a moral values way).

It baffles me because when I was Atheist (luckily I was only atheist a few months before I had a Road to Damascus event literally flash of light and God spoke to me) I did a lot of bad things, assaulted a lot of people, methodically planned to do bad things, etc. Again, these things are "bad" or "evil" in a Judeo-Christian sense, but if you are Atheist nothing is "evil". We're just animals then, and it's just that lion taking the enemy turf and raping the females, so why not a human raping the woman he wants and taking the stuff he wants, etc.

Yet Atheists act like missionaries trying to convert Christians away from their faith and towards Atheism as if it somehow imbues superior values. That's what really confuses me because I've seen the opposite in my own life. I could see if Atheists admit religion stabilizes society and they never try to push their views, but they don't they try and criticize believing religions as harmful and promote their own religion of dis-belief.

Baffling indeed.

derGroßmütige · May 20, 2015

HitchSlap said:
Baffling indeed.

Are you in agreement or trying to be tongue in cheek about me doing that stuff? I don't get why Atheists of all people seem to come up with these weird arguments to not act in their own self-interest. Like conquering a weaker country and taking it's rich oil reserves and enriching ourselves. Evolution is all about the strong crushing the weak and taking their stuff. How else are superior DNA genes to be propagated? (and not talking specific ethnic but actually individual-by-individual there are better genes from one person to another) If we prop up the weak at the expense of the strong we guarantee a backward decline in DNA.

Now, maybe you can change what you think is "strong", like maybe today we should focus on IQ and not physical strength, but the argument remains equally valid. Why let the mentally handicapped reproduce for example? Or other similar arguments...

HitchSlap said:
You're funny.

Thanks, I try.

HitchSlap · May 20, 2015

derGroßmütige said:
Are you in agreement or trying to be tongue in cheek about me doing that stuff? I don't get why Atheists of all people seem to come up with these weird arguments to not act in their own self-interest. Like conquering a weaker country and taking it's rich oil reserves and enriching ourselves. Evolution is all about the strong crushing the weak and taking their stuff. How else are superior DNA genes to be propagated? (and not talking specific ethnic but actually individual-by-individual there are better genes from one person to another) If we prop up the weak at the expense of the strong we guarantee a backward decline in DNA.

Now, maybe you can change what you think is "strong", like maybe today we should focus on IQ and not physical strength, but the argument remains equally valid. Why let the mentally handicapped reproduce for example? Or other similar arguments...

I'm trying to determine if you're being genuine or not. Tough to tell sometimes on the webz. You're new around here, so I'll give you benefit of the doubt. Also, if you haven't taken your meds today, might be a good time.

Rationalt · May 20, 2015

I couldn't rule out stealing a million dollars when the situation was grave enough. Pillage, plunder and things like that I definitely wouldn't.

Atheists: Why don't you steal, rape, pillage, etc?

Atheists Only: If you 100% could get away with stealing a million dollars, would you steal it?

Yes

No

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