Atheists Philosphers Mock Defining Atheism as a "Lack of Belief in God."

Uber Genius

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For some atheist philosopher responses to the problems with defining atheism as a "lack of belief,"

See:

-An atheist philosopher’s critique of the “lack of belief” definition of atheism

Atheism: Proving The Negative: The Burden of Proof is on the Atheist

http://www.provingthenegative.com/2007/09/burden-of-proof-is-on-atheist-redux.html

Note: The first link is a reblog as the original atheist philosopher from Australia (could it be Graham) took down the site as soon as theist philosopher William Lane Craig referenced and linked to it. Seems that furthering knowledge amongst philosophically naive atheists was not that philosophers primary concern after all.
 

KCfromNC

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For some atheist philosopher responses to the problems with defining atheism as a "lack of belief,"

You obviously don't believe everything that atheist philosophers write. Why should we?
 
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zippy2006

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There are no quotes from New Atheists in those links.

Before posting, you... looked and them, right?

All three links are themselves writings of atheists who reject central claims of contemporary atheism. Namely they reject 1) the purely negative definition of atheism, and 2) the idea that theists have the burden of proof.

We could argue about whether the atheists count as "New Atheists," but since the criteria of being a New Atheist are vague, so would such an argument be. Furthermore, insofar as Todd desires atheists who reject claims characteristic of New Atheism, he himself asks for atheists who do not fit perfectly into the box of "New Atheism." If this is denied then his request was purely illogical, being a request for New Atheists who reject central claims of New Atheism.
 
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zippy2006

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Uber Genius did not supply quotes from New Atheists for and you implied Uber Genius did.

Got it.

If someone asks for a quote and in response is given three blogposts, it is simply disingenuous to claim that the initial request went unmet. Uber Genius literally provided him with hundreds of quotes.
 
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zippy2006

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Read post 10, where Uber Genius misquotes something I said in another thread (Hmm, who else do I know that does that...) and tries to apply it to what I wrote in this thread.

Post 10 was written by me, not by Uber Genius, and I provided the original quotes to preclude so-called "misrepresentation."
 
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zippy2006

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She doesn't say that she believes that all possible gods don't exist.

  1. She is an atheist.
  2. She is arguing that 'atheist' ought to be defined as "active disbelief in the existence of gods."
  3. Someone who "actively disbelieves in the existence of gods" believes that no gods exist.
 
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mark kennedy

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For some atheist philosopher responses to the problems with defining atheism as a "lack of belief,"

See:

-An atheist philosopher’s critique of the “lack of belief” definition of atheism

Atheism: Proving The Negative: The Burden of Proof is on the Atheist

http://www.provingthenegative.com/2007/09/burden-of-proof-is-on-atheist-redux.html

Note: The first link is a reblog as the original atheist philosopher from Australia (could it be Graham) took down the site as soon as theist philosopher William Lane Craig referenced and linked to it. Seems that furthering knowledge amongst philosophically naive atheists was not that philosophers primary concern after all.
I think there is a reason atheists never bother defining God:

The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse. (Romans 1:18-20)​

They know God's 'invisible qualities, his eternal power and divine nature', but rather then glorifying God as God, they worshiped and served the creature rather then the Creator. In Athens Paul looks around at all the idols they had and they had a lot of them. He finds one in particular, 'to an unknown god', the word used is literally 'agnōstos' (G57 ἄγνωστος)

So they have an intuitive understanding of what the term 'God' means but actually do not know him in any personal are spiritual way. It seems to me that if I didn't believe in God or for whatever reason, didn't think anyone else really knew that much, I'd be curious enough to ask. As philosophical as atheism and agnosticism have become they never define the core term, 'God', never mind proving or disproving, they don't even want to discuss the meaning of the word.
 
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zippy2006

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I don't see anywhere in this blog post that mentions that the author believes "no possible gods exist".

Then you didn't read it:

"Furthermore, I’ll try to demonstrate that we have a much stronger positive philosophical case for rationally believing that no god – theistic or deistic – exists."​

I don't see anywhere in this blog post that mentions that the author believes "no possible gods exist".

So do you have evidence of anyone else saying that they "believe no possible gods exist"?

Todd, the whole post is an argument that atheism should be defined as "active disbelief" rather than mere "lack of belief." If you are not capable of reading a few lines of the blog and realizing such a simple and obvious fact, then I certainly won't be able to help you. I can't inculcate a desire for truth, that has to come from you.

Good luck.
 
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zippy2006

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Come to think of it, what the heck does actively disbelieve actually mean. Do you have to lack belief in something while you're working out at they gym? Seems like a term with a fairly limited usefulness.

Yes, KC, "actively disbelieve" means to lack belief while working out. (This is jaw-dropping strawman-absurdity, or else a joke that has gone horribly wrong.)

Try reading the post. It's fairly clear what is meant.
 
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mnorian

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dcarrera

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All three links are themselves writings of atheists who reject central claims of contemporary atheism. Namely they reject 1) the purely negative definition of atheism, and 2) the idea that theists have the burden of proof.

Let's assume that you are right about that. Why should I care? They don't speak for me. I would be happy to tell you my views, but I don't feel the need to defend a random blog post from someone I've never heard of.

In case you are wondering, I don't believe in Yahweh in roughly the same sense that you do not believe in Zeus. In other words, I actively think that Yahweh is most likely a myth, much like Zeus and Thor. So I do take a stronger position than mere "lack ob belief". I am not on the fence, I actively think that Yahweh, Zeus, and Thor are most likely myths. I just don't go as far as to say that I can prove that Yahweh, Zeus, and Thor don't exist. I just see a world that is full of myths and fairy tales that people believe.
 
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I think there is a reason atheists never bother defining God:
Never? Atheist philosophers and counter apologists give precising definitions of God in thelir work all the time. I do it in conversations with people who want to know why I'm an atheist.

The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse. (Romans 1:18-20)​
God's existence is not plain to me, nor am I suppressing the truth. I understand why Paul would think the way that he did, and I don't fault him for it. He was reasoning from the information he had at the time. But the idea that we are somehow held to the same conclusions that he drew from his intuitions when we have better understanding of the natural world than he did doesn't make any sense. We know things he didn't know, so we can draw different conclusions.

So they have an intuitive understanding of what the term 'God' means but actually do not know him in any personal are spiritual way. It seems to me that if I didn't believe in God or for whatever reason, didn't think anyone else really knew that much, I'd be curious enough to ask. As philosophical as atheism and agnosticism have become they never define the core term, 'God', never mind proving or disproving, they don't even want to discuss the meaning of the word.
The understanding of the word "god" doesn't come from inuition; it comes from hearing it used. And I do ask believers for their definition of God when the situation calls for it because it would be a waste of time arguing against the existence of something that they themselves don't believe in. But even so, I do have a definition of God that I use in a general sense based on what most people seem to mean by that word, and in a specific sense wax philosophical about it. And I'm an uneducated layman; the people who are trained in this stuff or who do it for a living do it way more often than I do. I don't know where you're getting this idea that atheists never do these things.
 
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Uber Genius

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But the idea that we are somehow held to the same conclusions that he drew from his intuitions when we have better understanding of the natural world than he did doesn't make any sense. We know things he didn't know, so we can draw different conclusions.

Welcome.

Paul dos the make his conclusions to convert from Judaism to Christianity based on his scientific ignorance. We still don't have an explanation for how professionally executed individuals who have been pronounced dead by professionals could possibly rise from the dead a few days later given our current science.

I don't know where you're getting this idea that atheists never do these things.
You are right to identify the sweeping generalization. The definitional missteps to avoid the burden of proof are not typical of atheists historically speaking, just of the cadre known as the new atheists and their followers.

My links to atheists philosophers complaining about the new atheists should support your point.

God's existence is not plain to me, nor am I suppressing the truth.
another good point.

I have conceptual reasons for belief in God that you may be unfamiliar with or find intellectually uncompelling.

Likewise, I may have experiential reasons that I can't possibly transfer to you or anyone else, as they are private and unavailable for inspection.

You may also find intellectual arguments compelling only to have them undercut or overwhelmingly defeated by experience of evil and suffering.

So it seems quite rational to hold an atheistic worldview.

Which is why I'm attempting to help those who hold such views articulate them in a rational and valid fashion.
 
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leftrightleftrightleft

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Welcome.

Paul dos the make his conclusions to convert from Judaism to Christianity based on his scientific ignorance. We still don't have an explanation for how professionally executed individuals who have been pronounced dead by professionals could possibly rise from the dead a few days later given our current science.

Paul was not there when Jesus died and supposedly rose from the dead.

The reason Paul converted was because of a personal experience he had which was unverified by anyone and, as far as we can tell, a product of his imagination. His personal experience has no greater weight to it than anyone else's personal experience. For example, if you read the book "Autobiography of a Yogi", you will see many similar stories to Paul. The yogi 'meets' his resurrected guru in the flesh years after the guru had died. Do you believe his testimony also? Why or why not?

There is no consistent methodology employed by Christians to weed out the charlatans from the truth-tellers. What makes the yogi a charlatan and Paul an apostle?

What makes the Bible reliable but other holy or miraculous texts unreliable?

I have conceptual reasons for belief in God that you may be unfamiliar with or find intellectually uncompelling.

If something exists, it exists. No intellectual jiggery-pokery should be required to convince me something exists.

Does the moon exist? Yes, I can see it in the sky at a specific time and place. Anyone else following the same methodology will also be able to arrive at the same conclusion that it exists.

Does the city of Seoul exist? Yes, I can visit it in a specific location. I can see photos. Everyone that has tried to visit Seoul has found it. No one has sought to find Seoul and come away thinking that Seoul does not exist. Anyone following the same methodology for finding Seoul can do so.

We have clear, agreed upon definition of what the "moon" is and what "Seoul" is. We have clear, common-sense, consistent methods for determining if something exists.

Likewise, I may have experiential reasons that I can't possibly transfer to you or anyone else, as they are private and unavailable for inspection.

While personal experience can be very convincing to the individual, it is not necessarily convincing to others.

If you have experiences with God, tell me where I can find him also to meet him. If something or someone exists, it is usually pretty easy. No jiggery-pokery required. Where is God? Give me a time and place where I can meet him. Is he like the mailman? Does he come to my house at a specific time of day? Is he in my house right now? Where exactly? Is he also in your house? Can I come to your house to meet him?

This should be no more complicated than finding the moon or finding Seoul or meeting your mailman. If it is more complicated, then why is it so complicated?


You may also find intellectual arguments compelling only to have them undercut or overwhelmingly defeated by experience of evil and suffering.

If God exists, it should be relatively easy to prove or show that he exists.

Why is it always so complicated requiring this vast labyrinth of "intellectual arguments"?

So it seems quite rational to hold an atheistic worldview.

Which is why I'm attempting to help those who hold such views articulate them in a rational and valid fashion.

If God exists, just tell me a consistent methodology which I can follow such that I can locate him.
 
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ToddNotTodd

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If God exists, it should be relatively easy to prove or show that he exists.

Why is it always so complicated requiring this vast labyrinth of "intellectual arguments"?

A wish to be seen as legitimate coupled with a lack of empirical evidence?

Or was that a rhetorical question?
 
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Uber Genius

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Paul was not there when Jesus died and supposedly rose from the dead.
Entertaining! Forget about his experience of the risen Chrst.

Oh or are you going to delete that experience. Okay find I delete the experience of all data gathered by scientists if a: it is not repeatable ( there go all the forensic sciences) and if it is not representative of modern knowledge.

Newton should be thrown out due to the fact he was ignorant of quantum mechanics. Genius, pure genius.

Sounds like you may have read to much Hume and his circular arguments against miricales due to his presumption of naturalism.

The reason Paul converted was because of a personal experience he had which was unverified by anyone and, as far as we can tell, a product of his imagination. His personal experience has no greater weight to it than anyone else's personal experience. For example, if you read the book "Autobiography of a Yogi", you will see many similar stories to Paul. The yogi 'meets' his resurrected guru in the flesh years after the guru had died. Do you believe his testimony also? Why or why not?

Correct, but it does have weight. And if ones detractors (the Jewish leaders of Jesus' day) don't challenge the facts of Jesus' miracles or his claims, if he has over 500 witnesses to his being risen, then the alternative hypothesis that explains those will have to hold up.

Now one can not reasonably explain the willingness of the disciples to go to their deaths in services of a story about Jesus they knew to be a lie.

These are very compelling witnesses.

Your method seeks to poison the wells to ALLhistorical witnesses, and ALL EXPERIENCE, which destroys all of history including science but if we accept your epistemology would couldn't possibly find any metaphysical cause as your method would yield a false negative.

There is no consistent methodology employed by Christians to weed out the charlatans from the truth-tellers.

Acts consistently presents a minimal facts case of Jesus' life, miracles and claims to be God, all attested to by his enemies followed by claims of a resurection easily disproved by the religious leaders of the day, by producing a body.

Acts 2,13-19, gospels. So I think you may be completely unfamiliar with the facts here.

What makes the Bible reliable but other holy or miraculous texts unreliable?
this is a long evidentiary discussion in and of it self. No need for the Gish gallop, let us focus on the method of how went undrstand historical arguments and data fairest before we change the subject.

No intellectual jiggery-pokery should be required to convince me something exists.
Hmm does light have wave and particle properties?

Does the expansion of space cause gravity?

It seems to build out an ontological account of those existing forces there is more than a little jiggery-pokery (not sure why someone defending philosophical naturalism would say this given the about of questionable jiggery-pokery involved in giving that account).

Does the moon exist? Yes, I can see it in the sky at a specific time and place. Anyone else following the same methodology w
not a student of philosophy? Ever heard of modernism? What about a false analogy? You can't even prove the reality of the past, other minds, and an external world. Science relies on those assumptions and more. I'm not anti-science but you keep on assuming the only things that exists are material which will leave you with a 2500 year-old problem of answering the question what is the first cause of material, since it can't be material and there can't be an infinite causal regress.

If you "seek" to understand the limits of scientific naturalism, in terms of knowledge, and then the circularity of Hume regarding miracles, your "seeking," might allow you an unbiased examination of the evidence. Best of luck gain that knowledge.
 
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TagliatelliMonster

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  1. Someone who "actively disbelieves in the existence of gods" believes that no gods exist.

False.

If you toss a coin and not show me the results, I can "actively disbelieve" both these claims:
- it is heads
- it is tails

and withhold believe in both until I have more data to make an informed decision.

We've been over this.
 
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