Atheists go to hell even if they are good!? (2)

razeontherock · May 18, 2011

Skavau said:
If God knows the future without hesitation, then it is decided.

You're chasing all over G-d's creation like a skittish deer. And you can do that, all by your own decisions. Regardless if any higher being is aware of it or not.

Philothei · May 18, 2011

I guess if we think that God can predict that you are going to hell.... then conviniently you will assume He also predestines you there... I see. But that is NOT what is taking place or then God creates us to predistines us to Hell ...That though cannot be for He is also all love.

Skavau · May 18, 2011

Philothei said:
That does not make any sense how a person living in the 1500 AD would know we would have computers? And that we can communicate globally..?? That is impossible to have this information...And you are saying that since he knew it was ....."decided" by who? The saint?

It is a vastly simple and vague prediction to make. It assumed that technology would advance the point of global communication and computing. It is a bit like me predicting that at some point in the future, we will advance to another planet.

So if I know that you will drink water in half an hour "I" decided it That does not make any sense to me either But that is ok. At least we know our position here.

No you don't know my position. If you did you would not be misrepresenting it so egregiously. You even quoted me where I explained, as briefly as I could my position:

Me said:
Not my argument. If the future can be known for sure then it is decided. That is the argument. If God knows the future without hesitation, then it is decided.

You also again are conflating a prediction with that of knowing the future. If the future is known (or can be known) as you suggest (by believing in prophecies and defending seers and psychics) then there is no free-will. If it is or can be know that I will drink water in half an hour then far from you deciding it, it would still be impossible for me to not drink it.

If the future is known, then it cannot be contravened and thus there can be no free-choice. That is my argument and that is what has to be so if you say that God knows the future.

Philothei · May 18, 2011

So if you drink water in half an hour then I decided it not you !! That is incretable I guess we can all "decide" for others then and be gods!!!. That is what I hear you saying" if the future is forseen then it is decided" ... So if I know that at six oclock my alarm will go on then I must have made this happen...But what about if someone else had set the alarm?

Skavau · May 18, 2011

Philothei said:
So if you drink water in half an hour then I decided it not you !!

Philothei, this board has rules against dishonesty about what people say. I have never said that and I have told you repeatedly what I actually say. If it is not clear enough for whatever reason then fine but please stop putting words in my mouth.

Philothei · May 18, 2011

I think you are trying to see it from a "man's" perspective. Try to take into account that time and space is irrelevant for God... God can forsee who will be in Hell for all humanity as he is all knowing. He is beyond time and space. He can be everywhere at the same time. So if God is not bound by time and space our actions are not somethign that happen right now but have happened. Despite of God's omniscience we are allowed to have full independance from Him. This is how He created us. I would indeed take it up with God... God can if He wish to withdraw his "omniscience" if so he choses He is not bound by any human logic but it seems to be going around in circles here so i will stop. Have a good night all

razeontherock · May 18, 2011

Skavau said:
If it is or can be know that I will drink water in half an hour then far from you deciding it, it would still be impossible for me to not drink it.

Hogwash. You could decide to go without food or water for the next 3 days. I've never met you but I'm pretty sure there is no string attached to your arm.

Freodin · May 18, 2011

Perhaps you are missing a very important point here.

If I know what you will do by your "free will", I did indeed not "make you do it." It is not my responsibility, because we two have no direct causal relationship.

But if I created you in the full knowledge that by your own free will you would do a certain action... I must take responsibility for that action.

Freodin · May 18, 2011

razeontherock said:
Hogwash. You could decide to go without food or water for the next 3 days. I've never met you but I'm pretty sure there is no string attached to your arm.

Hm... no.

We can ignore the question of "causation" here... but if someone "knows" that he will drink water in the next half hour, and this "knowledge" must be correct... that he can NOT decide not to drink, because that would mean that the "knowlegde" of the other person is incorrect.

Skavau · May 18, 2011

razeontherock said:
Hogwash. You could decide to go without food or water for the next 3 days. I've never met you but I'm pretty sure there is no string attached to your arm.

Yes, I could. But I don't think the future can be known. I am responding hypothetically to the notion that the future is known. If the future is known, then I can only do what is known and therefore if it is known that I will drink water then I will drink water.

You really need to look more closely at what people say.

razeontherock · May 18, 2011

@ Freodin: Enter the Cross ...

razeontherock · May 18, 2011

Skavau said:
Yes, I could. But I don't think the future can be known. I am responding hypothetically to the notion that the future is known. If the future is known, then I can only do what is known and therefore if it is known that I will drink water then I will drink water.

You really need to look more closely at what people say.

No, you really need to look at the 10 dimensions of string theory. The picture you paint is overly simplistic, to the nth degree.

Freodin · May 18, 2011

razeontherock said:
@ Freodin: Enter the Cross ...

If God created me in full knowlegde that I would decide by my own free will not to accept salvation... he is responsible for that creation and all my actions.

After all... he could have decided to do it differently, could he not?

Freodin · May 18, 2011

razeontherock said:
No, you really need to look at the 10 dimensions of string theory. The picture you paint is overly simplistic, to the nth degree.

Somehow I get the feeling that you don't have a clue about what you are talking right here.

Philothei · May 18, 2011

Freodin said:
Hm... no.

We can ignore the question of "causation" here... but if someone "knows" that he will drink water in the next half hour, and this "knowledge" must be correct... that he can NOT decide not to drink, because that would mean that the "knowlegde" of the other person is incorrect.

So what this has anthing to do with "preordaining" an action? I did not make him thrirsty or made him drink... Causation is what the problem is here...God has no interest to send anyone "just for fun" to Hell... period.

Philothei · May 18, 2011

razeontherock said:
No, you really need to look at the 10 dimensions of string theory. The picture you paint is overly simplistic, to the nth degree.

I would like to know about this too RAze

Freodin · May 18, 2011

Philothei said:
So what this has anthing to do with "preordaining" an action? I did not make him thrirsty or made him drink... Causation is what the problem is here...God has no interest to send anyone "just for fun" to Hell... period.

Note the difference:
YOU did not make Skavau thirsty or made him drink. YOU just know that he is/will.
GOD on the other hand created Skavau, knowing that he would be thirsty and drink.

And God, as it is said by some Christians, does not send anyone to Hell "just for fun"... he does it "for his Glory".

razeontherock · May 18, 2011

Freodin said:
If God created me in full knowlegde that I would decide by my own free will not to accept salvation... he is responsible for that creation and all my actions.

After all... he could have decided to do it differently, could he not?

NOPE. Dominion. He GAVE it to you. He no longer has it.

Philothei · May 18, 2011

Freodin said:
Note the difference:
YOU did not make Skavau thirsty or made him drink. YOU just know that he is/will.
GOD on the other hand created Skavau, knowing that he would be thirsty and drink.

And God, as it is said by some Christians, does not send anyone to Hell "just for fun"... he does it "for his Glory".

What Glory could possibly God get by sending anyone to hell? There is no "doxology" to God in hell

Also just because God created... and he knows when he will drink ...so? what? I see no connection there...His mom knows too...so?

Freodin · May 18, 2011

razeontherock said:
NOPE. Dominion. He GAVE it to you. He no longer has it.

This is not the way responsibility works.

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