Atheists go to hell even if they are good!? (2)

[Zipi]

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[razeontherock]

posted by lion hearted man

First, I don't believe that it was invented by a deity. Next, I believe it was invented by religious zealots who wanted there to be a dire consequence for not joining the group. That's all hell is - a concept to scare people into submission in my opinion."

That was in response to my query, what was hell invented for?

So now you've shown that EVERYTHINg YOU'VE EVER THOUGHT on the subject, has NO bearing on what the Bible says whatsoever. You either made it up, or formed opinion on what other people made up.

Not that I expect you care, but the Bible says hell was never intended for people, but for satan and those that followed him.

 

[razeontherock]

posted by m9lc:

I looked through my post history, and there is no accessible archive to the posts I made. So... yeah, I guess I will just have to rely on my memory of my thoughts back then"

My point about "archived" is not that it would be in your user control panel, but that old posts are archived. Not that they're easy to find, but I bet it's there.

 

[BleedingHeart]

"Of what you were saying were true, no one would believe that. Which means, you just grossly misrepresented Christianity."

I absolutely did not. That is the overall vibe I was getting from people in the last thread, as well as the people in Laura's church. God is all powerful. God can do anything. But at no point can we blame Him for anything because He's God.

 

[Lion Hearted Man]

So now you've shown that EVERYTHINg YOU'VE EVER THOUGHT on the subject,

You think that's everything I've ever thought on the subject? That's a bit presumptuous of you.

has NO bearing on what the Bible says whatsoever. You either made it up, or formed opinion on what other people made up.

Not that I expect you care, but the Bible says hell was never intended for people, but for satan and those that followed him.

Wait, you don't think that the Bible says that unbelievers go to hell?

 

[razeontherock]

God is all powerful. God can do anything. But at no point can we blame Him for anything because He's God.

He CAN'T do anything. He specifically left that ability to mankind. You can tell, because there are things you can DO. Since you're not God, that means He can't do those things. Personal responsibility and all that. It's also how you can tell when people are dead; they can't do anything anymore.

 

[razeontherock]

You think that's everything I've ever thought on the subject?

Nope. But everything flows from that one point, and it's wrong, per Scripture.

 

[Lion Hearted Man]

He CAN'T do anything. He specifically left that ability to mankind. You can tell, because there are things you can DO. Since you're not God, that means He can't do those things. Personal responsibility and all that. It's also how you can tell when people are dead; they can't do anything anymore.

So God DID make a stone so heavy that even he couldn't lift it.

But next question: does God know what we're going to do? Is he truly omniscient?

Nope. But everything flows from that one point, and it's wrong, per Scripture.

Funny how you're the only one claiming to know the absolute truth of the universe. I'll take that with a grain of salt.

 

[razeontherock]

But next question: does God know what we're going to do? Is he truly omniscient?

That word can be defined many ways. Which one might reflect "the truth," I don't see how any of us could know.

Funny how you're the only one claiming to know the absolute truth of the universe.

This does not follow from anything I have said. EVER. What I pointed out is your reasoning concerning hell, a Scriptural topic, is not founded on Scripture; which states that hell was not created for man, but for satan and his followers.

 

[Lion Hearted Man]

That word can be defined many ways. Which one might reflect "the truth," I don't see how any of us could know.

Does God know what is going to happen to me tomorrow? Simple question.

This does not follow from anything I have said. EVER. What I pointed out is your reasoning concerning hell, a Scriptural topic, is not founded on Scripture; which states that hell was not created for man, but for satan and his followers.

So no humans end up in hell? Well, why are you arguing with me, you should be arguing with mainstream Christianity.

 

[razeontherock]

Does God know what is going to happen to me tomorrow? Simple question.

Seems simple on the surface, but that can be broken down into many significant layers.

So no humans end up in hell?

You'll note, that's not what I said.

 

[Philothei]

Originally Posted by BleedingHeart

If I were to go to hell, it WOULD be God's responsibility for His choices and judgement of humanity, not mine. I'm sorry Christians but you simply cannot make an all powerful being that controls everything and then tell me that he's not responsible for anything bad that happens.
​

God does not make your decisions He just forsees them. He knows the past the present and the future.

 

[Lion Hearted Man]

Seems simple on the surface, but that can be broken down into many significant layers.

Yes. The question can be answered simply, but has huge implications. IF God knows the future, then the future is set in stone. The trade off for God's omniscience is that we lose our free will. So if you must believe in free will, you have to limit God's power.

You'll note, that's not what I said.

Then what does it matter? That's like saying a guillotine was invented for criminals but hey, let's use it on bystanders too.

 

[Lion Hearted Man]

God does not make your decisions He just forsees them. He knows the past the present and the future.

If he knows the future than the future cannot be changed. If he knows that on June 14, 2015 that I die in a car wreck, then there is nothing I can do to prevent that, because it's going to happen. If you claim that God is "outside of time" and sees everything as a time continuum or something, then there is only one way for things to happen and we really cannot be accountable for our actions because we didn't have a choice either way. We were stuck on the rails of time, following our destinies, if you will.

 

[Philothei]

So God DID make a stone so heavy that even he couldn't lift it.

But next question: does God know what we're going to do? Is he truly omniscient?



Funny how you're the only one claiming to know the absolute truth of the universe. I'll take that with a grain of salt.

Nah God CAN lift it but He choses NOT TO. God can makes us "do things" but He does not. That is because Not of His inability but His CHOICE. God made man with free will because HE as God can do that. It is like being a parent of course you can make decisions for your kids but at some point you have to allow them to make their own mistakes...Does this makes the parents "unable" to make decisions ?? nope but they CHOOSe to do that.

God "conduscends" to human will out of love for the mankind for if he did not then man loses his 'identity" and becomes 'less than human" but an extention of God's will. And that is not cool.. that is not what He intended to do. The whole incarnation points to free will... Christ took upon the cross out of free will to save humanity and humanity has now a choice... Christ asks does not impose salvation. It says "whoever wants take up your cross and follow me" He does not say you are coming by force with me... He encourages, He guides but never forces salvation...

 

[Philothei]

If he knows the future than the future cannot be changed. If he knows that on June 14, 2015 that I die in a car wreck, then there is nothing I can do to prevent that, because it's going to happen. If you claim that God is "outside of time" and sees everything as a time continuum or something, then there is only one way for things to happen and we really cannot be accountable for our actions because we didn't have a choice either way. We were stuck on the rails of time, following our destinies, if you will.

God does not have your logic He is over and beyond any human reasoning... So "planning" for God is not our planning and since he knows us "from the womb" he knows our life and our future...Too bad we do not know what is good for us He knows he forsees. Do you have a choice to drink water now or in ten minutes? if you do then you have free will

 

[cubinity]

So how is this just that if a christain who would lets say killed someone and asked for forgiveness would go to heaven and an atheist who has been good all there life, has never put themself first go to hell?

Please, answers?

There is nothing just about people getting a plea bargain that removes them from the penalty of their crime, but that's what the Gospel offers. Justice or not, I'd be a fool not to take that plea bargain.

 

[Lion Hearted Man]

Nah God CAN lift it but He choses NOT TO. God can makes us "do things" but He does not. That is because Not of His inability but His CHOICE. God made man with free will because HE as God can do that. It is like being a parent of course you can make decisions for your kids but at some point you have to allow them to make their own mistakes...Does this makes the parents "unable" to make decisions ?? nope but they CHOOSe to do that.

So....God has the ability to save people from hell with the snap of his fingers, but he simply doesn't want to? Now your God seems a bit immoral.

Imagine this: two parents have a kid. They value this "free will" concept so much that they refuse to stop their kid from playing in the street. They may shout from far away saying "get out of the road", but that's it. Then the parents get in their car, and run the kid over.

That's what your God is doing. He's being completely complacent, maybe shoving in a cryptic warning somewhere which is unconvincing to most people on the planet, and then if you don't abide by the warning, he personally destroys you. Personally, I don't like that scenario.

 

[Lion Hearted Man]

God does not have your logic He is over and beyond any human reasoning... So "planning" for God is not our planning and since he knows us "from the womb" he knows our life and our future...Too bad we do not know what is good for us He knows he forsees. Do you have a choice to drink water now or in ten minutes? if you do then you have free will

To the bolded part: IF God has knowledge of what I actually end up doing, no, I have no free will. I may have the illusion of free will, but that was also predestined. You don't seem to be getting my point.

If God cannot be described by logic, then God is a useless concept. Does 1+1 not equal 2 for God? You enjoy espousing other human concepts to God - love, justice, compassion - but you refuse to attribute to him logic and reason. Is that simply because logic and reason threaten your image of God?

 

[cubinity]

To the bolded part: IF God has knowledge of what I actually end up doing, no, I have no free will. I may have the illusion of free will, but that was also predestined. You don't seem to be getting my point.

If God cannot be described by logic, then God is a useless concept. Does 1+1 not equal 2 for God? You enjoy espousing other human concepts to God - love, justice, compassion - but you refuse to attribute to him logic and reason. Is that simply because logic and reason threaten your image of God?

Don't take this as an attack. It's not. It's just a question about your behavior here.

As an atheist, I assume your axiom is that there is no God, right?

I am more cool with that than you may be willing to believe.

The part I can't figure out, though, is your interest in the "image of God" in the mind of a theist. I mean, that person's God doesn't exist, right? So, since the other person is evidently wrong in light of your axiom, why does it matter after that what characteristics that person chooses to attribute to their imagined God?

Just curious. I'm honestly interested in your genuine answer.