Atheists as a majority

[DrFate]

The majority of the ideas in the OP do not relate to atheistism.

 

[The Nihilist]

To be fair, there are extremists on one side saying that atheists are murderers, and extremists on the other side that say Christians are ignorant, that they cause wars, that they are anti-science, unreasonable, etc. Both assumptions are, of course, lies, but nevertheless they exist.

It is suprising how some want to lump all Christians together, but then vehmently oppose lumping all atheists together. Neither is correct! You can not lump all Christians together, and you can not lump all atheists together. There are extremists on all sides of the debate, but they do not represent the majority. I'm sure there are even extremist agnostics out there...

Sychophant, I know you are neither an extremist nor a lumper, but I think it needed to be said and your post was a good jumping-off point.

Don't be so hard on people who lump all Christians together. During the Terri Schiavo thing, I thought the whole of Christianity had gone insane, and I was a pretty dedicated Christian. Maybe you got less of this because you're Canadian, but then, it seemed like the arrogant anti-science christians controlled the entire world except for Judge Greer.

 

[R0D]

The majority of the ideas in the OP do not relate to atheistism.

And that would be because of why?
A "lack of belief" means that they have a common code of morality? Not.

They relate if and when Atheists by a majority or as individuals do or support those ideas. That's is just like it relates to everyone.

The old cliche is true, actions speak louder than words. It doesn't take me long to read the posts of Atheist members here, somewhere else or listening IRL to get a grasp on all the different things Atheists do and support. The difference between that relationship to the OP and Christianity is that Christianity has a standard. Whether someone claiming to be a Christian actually lives by that standard or not would be another discussion.

 

[Sycophant]

The old cliche is true, actions speak louder than words. It doesn't take me long to read the posts of Atheist members here, somewhere else or listening IRL to get a grasp on all the different things Atheists do and support. The difference between that relationship to the OP and Christianity is that Christianity has a standard. Whether someone claiming to be a Christian actually lives by that standard or not would be another discussion.

Beyond a few things I don't think Christians on the whole are more unified in their morals or beliefs than Atheists.

 

[DrFate]

Finding a specific set of beliefs of a group that has no real self-definition other that the lack of belief in a God is impossible.

 

[R0D]

Beyond a few things I don't think Christians on the whole are more unified in their morals or beliefs than Atheists.

I might be inclined to agree if we were using the same basis of what qualifies as a Christian, but I don't think we are.

 

[Sycophant]

I might be inclined to agree if we were using the same basis of what qualifies as a Christian, but I don't think we are.

Well if you're going to discount as 'not real Christans' those who demonstrate beliefs or actions different to your own, then yes. An arguement is often made when people point to immoral actions on the behalf of Christians that "clearly they are not real Christians".

In this case I qualify someone as Christian when they claim to be Christian, as I know of no objective qualification by which to judge Christianity. It requires a belief in Jesus Christ as the son of God and saviour of man, and I can't determine the veracity of someone's beliefs. Beyond that belief, the way people choose to enact their faith varies greatly between denominations, churches and even individuals.

Most humans have a similar fundemental guide of morality, refered to as the golden rule - do unto others etc... People then make determinations about under what conditions that concept is to be bent or broken. This is not conditional upon religion, but on individual situation.

 

[Lisa0315]

Well if you're going to discount as 'not real Christans' those who demonstrate beliefs or actions different to your own, then yes. An arguement is often made when people point to immoral actions on the behalf of Christians that "clearly they are not real Christians".

In this case I qualify someone as Christian when they claim to be Christian, as I know of no objective qualification by which to judge Christianity. It requires a belief in Jesus Christ as the son of God and saviour of man, and I can't determine the veracity of someone's beliefs. Beyond that belief, the way people choose to enact their faith varies greatly between denominations, churches and even individuals.

Most humans have a similar fundemental guide of morality, refered to as the golden rule - do unto others etc... People then make determinations about under what conditions that concept is to be bent or broken. This is not conditional upon religion, but on individual situation.

I (enjoy) arguing that Christians are the only ones who have a true Scotsman to be tested by. Christ is our perfect example.

Lisa

 

[USincognito]

I take the CF approach and use the Nicean Creed. And then I do what I think people who don't have an agenda do - I evaluate individuals by their actions and motivations rather than lump people together or confuse the brutal exercise of political power with religious motivations.

Shame the OP can't get to that point.

 

[Sycophant]

I take the CF approach and use the Nicean Creed. And then I do what I think people who don't have an agenda do - I evaluate individuals by their actions and motivations rather than lump people together or confuse the brutal exercise of political power with religious motivations.

Shame the OP can't get to that point.

The OP me, or the OP that I quoted from another board?

As for judging by actions and motivations - that's reasonable, but defeats the purpose in pointing out that not all Christians (or whatever) are intrinsically ethical or moral, because as soon as a case is identified where a Christian (or whatever) is not the epitome of morality and ethicacy they are demoted from Christianity (or whatever) by their deeds.

I take the view, overall, that people are individuals. We all share a fairly common idea of morality (golden rule) and then choose to exempt it in certain circumstances. Religions tie additional ideas of morality to this common strand, and associate different direct and indirect consequences with it, but overall, when it comes down to it, any individual is as capable as any other of being immoral regardless of religion.

The OP chooses to characture and generalise about a group based on a peceived lack of morals and somehow expresses an idea of society in a single famliy who are clearly not the norm for anyone, which is flawed to begin with.

 

[SallyNow]

Don't be so hard on people who lump all Christians together. During the Terri Schiavo thing, I thought the whole of Christianity had gone insane, and I was a pretty dedicated Christian. Maybe you got less of this because you're Canadian, but then, it seemed like the arrogant anti-science christians controlled the entire world except for Judge Greer.

Yah, I don't get that so much up here. All the Christians I knew and heard about wanted to see what the evidence said: was she essentially brain dead, or not? They wanted to base their opinions on the medical science of it all, not on bleeding-heart conservative speeches.

So, yes, when someone does judge all Christians, or all of any religious/lack of religous group together, I do see it as arrogance, rudeness, and a lack of intellectual honesty. Then again, I know that in the USA it's hard to remember that there is a "rest of the world", as the media is, well, kinda America centred, except for PBS and BBCWorld and CBC, if you're in a market that gets CBC...

 

[Najdorf]

I found this on another forum (that I won't link to, as it contains things that aren't cool here). Also, I will edit it for the taste of this forum:

This is what it would be like, if the majority of people were athiests.​

ATHIEST KID: Mom, I'm going to go [have sex with] a hooker.​

ATHIEST MOM: Okay, son.​

ATHIEST KID: Afterwards, I'm going to go smoke pot with my friends, since it's "not addictive."​

ATHIEST MOM: Okay, come home soon!​

The athiest kid leaves the room. The father comes home from work several minutes later.​

ATHIEST DAD: Hey!​

ATHIEST MOM: Hi, honey! I'm pregnant again. I guess I'll just get another abortion, since "fetuses don't count as human life."​

ATHIEST DAD: Okay, get as many abortions as you want!​

ATHIEST MOM: Oh, and don't go in the bedroom.​

ATHIEST DAD: Why not?​

ATHIEST MOM: There are two gay men [making love] in there.​

ATHIEST DAD: Why are they here?​

ATHIEST MOM: I wanted to watch them do it for awhile. They just aren't finished yet.​

ATHIEST DAD: Okay, that's fine with me!​

Suddenly, their neighbor runs into the house.​

ATHIEST NEIGHBOR: Come quick, there's a Christian outside!​

ATHIEST MOM: We'll be right there!​

The athiest couple quickly put on a pair of black robes and hoods. They then exit the house, and run into the street, where a Christian is nailed to a large, wooden X. He is being burned alive. A crowd of athiests stand around him, all wearing black robes and hoods.​

RANDOM ATHIEST: Damn you, Christian! We hate you! We claim to be tolerant of all religions. But we really hate your's! That's because we athiests are hypocritical like that! Die, Christian!​

THE END​

Scary, isn't it?​

So that's it, pretty much verbatim as I found it... I think it's someone legit opinion.

Are there really a lot of people who really think that this would happen if Atheists were the majority, or ran the government?

LOL!! This is not just scary or sad, it's also true and funny in a demented sort of way. I mean, this is true in the attitude of the common atheists in the way they hate Christians and raise their kids and conduct marriage life, but it's funny because theres such a lack of logic in this line of thinking I can't help but laugh. But where its scary is actually seeing the truth of what you posted and I can tell you from loads of experience that thats not a joke (even though it has a comical vibe).

I gotta admit, that was good!

 

[Sycophant]

LOL!! This is not just scary or sad, it's also true and funny in a demented sort of way. I mean, this is true in the attitude of the common atheists in the way they hate Christians and raise their kids and conduct marriage life, but it's funny because theres such a lack of logic in this line of thinking I can't help but laugh. But where its scary is actually seeing the truth of what you posted and I can tell you from loads of experience that thats not a joke (even though it has a comical vibe).

Wow, Najdorf, your response is very interesting.

I am especially interested in the parts of your comment I've highlighted above.

What do you mean by 'common Atheists'? Are you associating a political ideology with this group as well?

Do you actually think that atheists are anti-Christian (or anti-theist) in general?

And what about marriage or married life are their kids being raised to believe?

I posted this is the political forum because the issues it parodies are largely political ones, framed in a religious context and because this is the forum I spend most time in and where I am most familiar with the posters. However I guess this may be an Apologetics issue as well?

Looking at the original post, do you feel that if Atheists were the majority (either in population, or government) that these things would somehow become the norm?

And then there's the issues raised in the post, while satirised, they are:
1) Prostitution
2) Drugs - specifically Marijuana
3) Abortion
4) Homosexuality (and some weird voyeristic thing)
5) Christian persecution

Non of which (except for number 5 I guess) seem to get consensus from Christians or Atheists - There are certainly members of both groups on this forum on both sides of all those issues. The Christian persecution thing - well that's just weird and a little paranoid.

Tell me more - what about this unusual scenario strikes a chord with you?

And now that it's just occured to me, what is it about an Atheist majority that makes this plausible? With the exception of the Christian killing at the end, nothing in this scenario couldn't happen in any given home already (although it seems highly unlikely - few kids are that open with their parents, very very very very few people wuld take abortion that lightly, and most people wouldn't tend to invite gay couples to have exhibitionist sex in their house, but I guess it's not impossible.

None of that hinges on any sort of majority of anyone.

 

[TeddyKGB]

LOL!! This is not just scary or sad, it's also true and funny in a demented sort of way. I mean, this is true in the attitude of the common atheists in the way they hate Christians and raise their kids and conduct marriage life, but it's funny because theres such a lack of logic in this line of thinking I can't help but laugh. But where its scary is actually seeing the truth of what you posted and I can tell you from loads of experience that thats not a joke (even though it has a comical vibe).

And by "not a joke," you mean that those things really happen?

I ask because I have been trying to attend a Christian-burning for ages. None of the planned outings nearby ever materialized and, since you obviously know of one that occurred, you are now the foremost authority on such things.

 

[Vylo]

This is just silly. We wouldn't burn people. It pollutes the air .

 

[Lisa0315]

This is just silly. We wouldn't burn people. It pollutes the air .

No, not burning, but other methods. See link.

http://www.christianpersecution.info/

 

[LovesTruth]

Try this on for size... as a continuation of the original conversation here.




[SIZE=+1]The anti-Christian bias in our society has reached absurd proportions. Consider:[/SIZE]
1. During the 1988 election campaign, George Bush said that Christians should not be considered patriots or real American citizens.
2. Bill Clinton steadfastly refused to give any speeches at local churches.
3. Both major political parties are dominated by anti-Christians. The Republican party, for example, gave us such hard-core atheists as Pat Buchanan, Dan Quayle, Phyllis Schlafly and Ronald Reagan. And the Democrats have given us such personalities as the Rev. Martin Luther King and the Rev. Jesse Jackson-- both noted for their vicious attacks on all forms of Christianity.
4. Let's talk about the media. On Sunday mornings, nearly all major television channels broadcast pro-atheist shows; it is nearly impossible to find religious programming during that time period. Further, Madalyn Murray O'Hair has her own cable TV channel, while Pat Robertson has been unable to obtain one for himself.
5. Most major newspapers run a special weekly section devoted to atheism. There are no equivalent sections for religious news.
6. Anti-Christian shows such as the American Atheist Forum are broadcast by major national networks. Meanwhile, Billy Graham is only able to get on the air through public access TV, which is watched by few people.
7. On news programs and "reality" TV shows such as Rescue 911, nobody is ever shown giving thanks to God after surviving a disaster.
8. It is almost impossible to find a shopping mall with a Christian Armory book store, while Atheist Book Centers are featured prominently on every corner.
9. While atheists couples who marry rarely have any difficulty finding a place to do so, it is nearly impossible for Christian couples to find a church where they can marry.
10. For that matter, churches themselves are extremely rare, while atheist meeting centers can be found every few blocks.
11. Jurors must take an oath upon a copy of the Skeptical Inquirer before they can serve. There have even been court cases thrown out because one of the jury members was a Christian who insisted on swearing on a Bible.
12. Christians often find it nearly impossible to get time off work for religious holidays such as Christmas.
13. Even our language reflects the radical anti-Christian bias that pervades our society. For example, when somebody sneezes, most people say "Darwin bless you". Similarly, "Voltaire dammit!" is a common cussword.
14. All of our money has the atheistic slogan "We do not trust in God" printed on it.
15. In school, our children are made to recite the pledge, "One nation, anti-God, indivisible...."
16. One cannot rent a hotel room without finding a copy of Nietzsche's The Anti-Christ in the room.
17. Organizations such as the Boy Scouts deny membership to Christians.
18. In the military, it is nearly impossible to obtain Conscientious Objector status for religious reasons, even though those with philosophical reasons can obtain C.O. status relatively easily.
19. Christian churches are forced to pay exorbitant taxes.
20. You can't drive anywhere without seeing a Darwin fish or a "Jesus Was A Fraud" bumper sticker stuck to a car.
21. Georgia recently passed a new law requiring schools to have a "moment of noise" during which children are encouraged to degrade Christianity.
22. College campuses usually have dozens of atheist organizations, but few if any for Christians.
23. Many Christians are afraid to admit their Christianity to their parents and friends, for fear their kin will consider them immoral Christian scum and want nothing to do with them.
24. At presidential inauguration ceremonies, Madalyn Murray-O'Hair (that well-known friend of several presidents) gives a short pro-atheism speech.
25. For decades, high school and college commencement ceremonies have included brief speeches at the beginning and end of the ceremony in which atheism is praised and Christians deemed irrational. Christians who object to the practice, or who ask for an opening prayer instead, are regarded as cranks at best and subversives at worst.
26. "There are no Christians in foxholes" is a popular slogan in our society.
27. Communities set up atheist brainwashing facilities, and apply social pressure to citizens to report to these facilities every Sunday morning. Furthermore, attendees are expected to contribute money to support these facilities, and to build others through "outreach" programs.
28. At baseball games, you can often spot people carrying signs that read "Origin Of Species, page 34".
29. Businesses often refuse to admit that they are Christian owned and operated, for fear of being boycotted by their atheist customers. Meanwhile, atheist-owned businesses often feature Darwin-fish logos in their ads.
30. Atheists have often invented "deathbed deconversion" stories about famous Christians, claiming they became atheists just before they died.
31. Insurance companies refer to natural disasters as "Acts of Darwin".
32. Forms for job applications, government aid and so forth often ask what type of atheist you are, with checkboxes for "atheist", "agnostic", "humanist" and so forth. If you are a Christian, the only thing you can do is check the "other" box-- if one is provided.
33. Sports teams often read from the Humanist Manifesto prior to the game, in the hopes that doing so will increase their chances of winning.
34. Atheists constantly threaten television and movies producers with boycotts whenever they portray Christianity in a positive light.
35. Well-known atheists like Michael Martin and Quentin Smith have set up ministries to witness to Christians, but it is virtually impossible to find Christians who specialize in debating atheists.
36. The word "Christian" is recognized as a term which represents the worst of human attributes: cynicism, pessimism, selfishness, and moral turpitude. The word "Atheist," on the other hand, is used to signify all that is virtuous, as in, "That's mighty Atheist of you!"
37. On sitcoms and movies of the week, the parents make references to how their lack of faith in God helps them get through life's troubles. Meanwhile, Christians are portrayed as pathetic folks who end up converting to atheism.
38. Atheists who convert to christianity are often told by their parents "It's just a rebellious phase. Once you move through this stage of life you'll realize that you never really believed in God." Similarly, people who are raised as Christians are condesended to, and told that if they would give atheism a chance, it would fill the empty hole that Chistianity must be leaving in their lives.
39. Most people assume everyone else is an Atheist and are unbelievers as they are. It makes for uncomfortable social situations for Christians and other religious types.
40. Despite the overwhelming number of Atheists in the general population and in powerful legislative positions, when they don't get their own way, Atheists whine that this is an anti-Atheistic country.
41. Atheists constantly cite, out of context, books of philosophy by noted Atheists to prove that Christians live irrational lives.
42. Atheists do everything possible to get laws passed that will prevent irrational Christians from making their own choices in matters of sex, procreation, life-styles, family units, etc.
43. In small towns and communities all over the U.S. Atheist horns awake Christians at midnight on Saturdays preventing them from getting a good night's sleep before their Sabbath. Fortunately for much of the population, few church bells wake Atheists who want to sleep in on Sundays.
44. Atheist Army (and other Freethought) soup kitchens force homeless Christians to listen to Atheist propaganda before serving them a meal.
45. Hundreds of self-help groups replace codependence with the 12 Steps of A.B.A. (Atheist Brainwashing Anonymous), convincing people they don't have the power to help themselves but must rely on the power of Darwin to overcome addiction.
46. U.S. Atheist organizations send missionaries to underdeveloped countries to convince people to renounce long-held local religious beliefs and become Atheists.
47. All prisons have a resident atheist philosopher, and inmates are encouraged to participate in weekly philophical dicussions on Bible Contradictions. This is often reported to parole board, who consider it a good indication of contritenes on the prisoner's part.
48. A political candidate who declares himself a Christian will have far less chance of winning an election than one who flaunts his atheism.
49. Whenever an atheist commits a crime, invariably people will argue that this is not a sign that teaching atheism might not guarantee a better society, because anyone who would act that way "isn't a true atheist."
50. One often sees bumper stickers like, "Thomas Paine said it, I believe it, that settles it," but seldom sees Christian bumper stickers.
From Scientific Paganism list...think about it Christians...if this list were real how would you feel?

http://www.laterralane.com/siems/antichristianbias.htm

(I bet somebody will respond before reading and then delete his own post.)

 

[JustOneWay]

Deleted

 

[LovesTruth]

In response to the above, I say, "So what's the problem?" If atheists or Muslims or Orthodox Jews or Bible-believing Christians are the majority, let the majority decide what kind of nation they want and pass laws accordingly.

The only caveat is this: Always respect basic human rights. That means moslems must allow Christians to disagree with their laws and allow muslims to convert from Islam with no penalty. Fat chance!

In the case of atheists, it means they must allow us to evangelize, to call homosexuality a sin, to criticize lying and theft and corruption in government, and to school our children as we see fit. It means under a gov't run by atheists we people of faith must have the same access to gov't buildings and service as secular groups. Again, fat chance.

Only in evangelical Christian America have atheism and Jewish and Moslem and other faiths been accorded equality with majority Christians.

 

[Morcova]

Are there really a lot of people who really think that this would happen if Atheists were the majority, or ran the government?

Atheists are the most hated and untrusted minority in this country.

So yes probably.