Atheistic Morality

[EndersConscience]

I am rather concerned by the sheer number of Christians on these forums who seem to believe that a belief in Christ and the bible is necessary to lead a life grounded in morality. My proudly liberal, atheistic view is that there can be good, evil, right, and wrong without a religion, so to speak. So, here's my question - To you, how important is the Story of Jesus Christ? Would you more willingly endorse a purely secular individual whose ethical beliefs align with the love, kindness, charity etc. aspect of Christ's teachings --- or a "believer" in Christ, a devoted follower who nevertheless kills, lies, and tortures (Support our troops flags, anyone?)? Honestly, does one have to accept a God and Jesus Christ to be a "saintly" individual?

 

[selfinflikted]

I am rather concerned by the sheer number of Christians on these forums who seem to believe that a belief in Christ and the bible is necessary to lead a life grounded in morality. My proudly liberal, atheistic view is that there can be good, evil, right, and wrong without a religion, so to speak. So, here's my question - To you, how important is the Story of Jesus Christ? Would you more willingly endorse a purely secular individual whose ethical beliefs align with the love, kindness, charity etc. aspect of Christ's teachings --- or a "believer" in Christ, a devoted follower who nevertheless kills, lies, and tortures (Support our troops flags, anyone?)? Honestly, does one have to accept a God and Jesus Christ to be a "saintly" individual?

I would have to say absolutely not. I've completely rejected the idea of christianity, other than to say it is merely fable and is valuable only in that respect. I align myself with the golden rule, which is BASICALLY all the bible really says. I think there are a lot of non-christians who lead perfectly "golden" lives.

 

[FadingWhispers3]

Would you more willingly endorse a purely secular individual whose ethical beliefs align with the love, kindness, charity etc. aspect of Christ's teachings

"What good is it, my brothers if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such a faith save him?" James 2:14

"If those who are not circumcised keep the law's requirements, will they not be regarded as though they were circumcised? The one who is not circumcised physically and yet obeys the law will condemn you who, even though you have the written code and circumcision , are a lawbreaker." Romans 2:26

"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is heaven. Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evil-doers!'" Matthew 7:21

"Blessed are the merciful, for they will be shown mercy." Matthew 5:7

 

[CSmrw]

It occurs to me that some of the religious seem to be unable to find any morality in themselves and must seek it from a higher authority. Were it not for a God or a policeman they would have nothing in the way of social self control. That is if yuo buy their arguments on morality, which I don't.

 

[selfinflikted]

It occurs to me that some of the religious seem to be unable to find any morality in themselves and must seek it from a higher authority. Were it not for a God or a policeman they would have nothing in the way of social self control. That is if yuo buy their arguments on morality, which I don't.

That's one of the things for which I find religion useful, and can see how for some it's necessary. Hey, if it's in line with the law then I say fine and dandy. Whatever floats your boat. If however, it infringes on *my* rights, that's where I draw the line.

 

[Mayflower1]

Well, I do believe it is kind of stereotypical. As a Christian, the story of Christ is very important in my life. You can live a good live as an athiest, be a very nice person, but it just doesn't get you anywhere after life. Good just isn't enough for God...

 

[selfinflikted]

Well, I do believe it is kind of stereotypical. As a Christian, the story of Christ is very important in my life. You can live a good live as an athiest, be a very nice person, but it just doesn't get you anywhere after life. Good just isn't enough for God...

Well, I'm not sure the point of the thread is will you get into heaven if you live a moral life. I think the gist is to ask if it's possible to be moral and not be religious.

 

[CSmrw]

That's one of the things for which I find religion useful, and can see how for some it's necessary. Hey, if it's in line with the law then I say fine and dandy. Whatever floats your boat. If however, it infringes on *my* rights, that's where I draw the line.

The thing is I don't buy that excuse for having a God for a second. If they were suddenly to discover there were no Gods they would certainly figure out a moral code in line with their society pretty damned quick. If they didn't they would be awfully lonely and scared.

 

[CSmrw]

Heya Lill! Hope all is well in your life. Your PM was full, by the way. I didn't ignore you.

And Lill has it at least sensibly correct. If there is a God all my morality means nothing to him. I will go to hell and that's that. But I do have morality and it is every bit as mortally valuable as any theist's.

 

[selfinflikted]

The thing is I don't buy that excuse for having a God for a second. If they were suddenly to discover there were no Gods they would certainly figure out a moral code in line with their society pretty damned quick. If they didn't they would be awfully lonely and scared.

I don't necessarily disagree with that, but obviously this theory wouldn't apply to everyone... some people just "need" religion - they need to have faith in something and, if gaining a set of morals is a by-product, I say great Personally, this doesn't apply but I can certainly understand where religion can provide for some of those needs.

 

[CSmrw]

To me it looks exactly like alcoholism. I need a drink to make it through the day. I need a God to make it through life. No. You may need a God to make it through death, but not life.

 

[selfinflikted]

To me it looks exactly like alcoholism. I need a drink to make it through the day. I need a God to make it through life. No. You may need a God to make it through death, but not life.

That's an interesting point, and I never looked at it in quite that way. And like I said previously... Religion isn't right for everyone - but some people need it, and let's face it it * is * less destructive than alcoholism hehe hmm.. well... maybe not ...

 

[EndersConscience]

"I can swear there ain't no Heaven
but I pray there ain't no hell
Swear there ain't no Heaven
and I'll pray there ain't no hell
but I'll never know by livin'
only my dyin' will tell" - Blood, Sweat, & Tears.

 

[selfinflikted]

"I can swear there ain't no Heaven
but I pray there ain't no hell
Swear there ain't no Heaven
and I'll pray there ain't no hell
but I'll never know by livin'
only my dyin' will tell" - Blood, Sweat, & Tears.

I'd actually venture to say that agnostics probably don't worry too much over the heaven/hell thing. I know I don't. But I'm not agnostic either

 

[seebs]

I believe the teachings of Jesus to be true, and they are well-enough verified that I'd believe them regardless.

 

[EndersConscience]

I am not aware of any verification at all of the teachings of Christ, please elaborate. (Are you referring to the bible? If so, that's another argument.)

 

[CSmrw]

I only have two problems with the teachings of Jesus:

They rely on a God. Given the time and location, I can ignore that part.

They assume sin nature and move from there. This I have a much harder time with. Man is wretched, but equally wretched. God will then apply the ointment of salvation. No. Man is neutral, natural. It is how he deals with his anachronistic urges that creates harmony or dischord with his environment.

 

[MoonlessNight]

Any good system of morality will have some purely secular nature to it though to be fully realized it may need a divine component. For example though one needs to believe in God to fully appreciate divine law, it can be approached from a secular standpoint through natural law. At the same time I think that to understand virtue theory in its fullest potential it helps to understand God's role, but at the same time one can easily believe in virtue and vice without any religious background.

 

[MoonlessNight]

That's an interesting point, and I never looked at it in quite that way. And like I said previously... Religion isn't right for everyone - but some people need it, and let's face it it * is * less destructive than alcoholism hehe hmm.. well... maybe not ...

Honestly I greatly prefer when an atheist calls me a superstious idiot to when they make some claims along the likes of "you only believe in your religion, but I'm okay with that because I understand you have some 'need' to believe those things." At least when I'm called an idiot I'm being approached as a potential equal; you only criticize idiots when they can become smarter. When I'm told it's okay that "I need religion" it's just a way to avoid dealing with what I believe. There is also the issue that it creates an underlying superiority behind the statement. I am superior, because I am independent. I know that you don't mean it that way, but it doesn't change the fact that the implication is there.

 

[CSmrw]

What can I tell you?