Atheist vs Antitheist

[Kenny'sID]

It depends; they start inquisitions, burn witches, sometimes even fly airplanes into buildings.

Belief in my God doesn't make people do that, being a nut case does.

You really should know better than that by now, it's a simple minded, unreasonable and unfounded accusation towards God. Your gripe is against people, yet your post sounds an awful lot like you are against God, you know, the God that doesn't exist.

 

[Speedwell]

Belief in my God doesn't make people do that, being a nut case does.

You really should know better than that by now, it's a simple minded, unreasonable and unfounded accusation towards God. Your gripe is against people, yet your post sounds an awful lot like you are against God, you know, the God that doesn't exist.

No, belief in your God just makes people want to do annoying things like teach creationism in the public schools, criminalize gay marriage, support a doofus President, stuff like that.

And yes, my gripe is against people, not God. That is the point I have been trying to to make over the last several posts. Atheism isn't the same thing as anti-religionism.

Oh, and that reminds me of another annoying thing people who believe in your God do: assume that anyone who doesn't believe in that God exactly the same way they do is an an atheist.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Some quick food for thought; I think there could be less tension of Christians would learn the definitions of 'Atheist' and 'Antitheist'.

It seems like most of us tend to label the first group as the latter, which is damaging considering only the latter presents a literal anti-God view.

I feel like most Atheists aren't anti-God, so much as they're opposed to believing in anything too 'far fetched' or without scientific basis. Honestly, id even say most seem to enjoy playing devil's advocate for the sake of discussion to promote critical thinking...which really isn't a bad thing.

Thoughts?

My thoughts? I let atheists define themselves however and whenever they want to. The upshot in my doing this is that I generally expect the same in return.

 

[Kenny'sID]

No, belief in your God just makes people want to do annoying things like teach creationism in the public schools, criminalize gay marriage, support a doofus President, stuff like that.

Opinion, nothing more.

Whether you are annoyed at others, or if your annoyances are valid or not is pretty much irrelevant here. Aren't we all at one time or another

And yes, my gripe is against people, not God.

Good. I wasn't sure why you even brought that up..I mean bad people do bad things all the time, but do we, for example, cite Atheism as the reason someone robbed the mini mart? Of course not, but you don't see anyone here going on about how Atheism is the catch all for any wrong doing Atheists. While we do see people going on, and on about how belief in God causes serious problems.

 

[grasping the after wind]

Some quick food for thought; I think there could be less tension of Christians would learn the definitions of 'Atheist' and 'Antitheist'.

It seems like most of us tend to label the first group as the latter, which is damaging considering only the latter presents a literal anti-God view.

I feel like most Atheists aren't anti-God, so much as they're opposed to believing in anything too 'far fetched' or without scientific basis. Honestly, id even say most seem to enjoy playing devil's advocate for the sake of discussion to promote critical thinking...which really isn't a bad thing.

Thoughts?

I do not think that one can say a the term atheist applies to people that do not believe in anything too "far fetched". There are a number of atheists that believe in very far fetched things. Some along with many theists even believe in ancient aliens. Let the definition stick with belief in any god or gods and leave it at that. There also is not anyone that you would describe as an antitheist that would not also be an atheist so one is a sub group of the other and not a completely independent group.

 

[jacks]

As soon as you try to label anybody as anything you get into trouble. There is so much variation within groups broad labels usually become meaningless.

 

[grasping the after wind]

As soon as you try to label anybody as anything you get into trouble. There is so much variation within groups broad labels usually become meaningless.

If the label is as restricted to one thing as does the label atheist i.e. one that does not believe there is/are a god(s), then the label surely is meaningful. However, it encompasses so many different and unique individuals that considering the label to tell one any more than that single thing about a person with that label is unreasonable.

 

[Speedwell]

Opinion, nothing more.

Whether you are annoyed at others, or if your annoyances are valid or not is pretty much irrelevant here. Aren't we all at one time or another

Correct. And that's why these things are discussed--to resolve the annoyance if possible.

Good. I wasn't sure why you even brought that up..I mean bad people do bad things all the time, but do we, for example, cite Atheism as the reason someone robbed the mini mart? Of course not, but you don't see anyone here going on about how Atheism is the catch all for any wrong doing Atheists.

We would if they advanced atheism as a justification for their actions.

While we do see people going on, and on about how belief in God causes serious problems.

No, the actions of people sometimes cause problems and when they fall back on God as the cause or justification of the problem they can expect some response from those who don't believe that God exists. It's like when the student says "Teacher, the dog ate my homework." and the teacher responds, "But Kenny, you don't have a dog."


No, you miss the point. Sometimes people make nuisances of themselves, right? And sometimes even Christians make nuisances of themselves (because Christians are people too, right?). So if a Christian makes a nuisance of himself and advances the existence of his God as a justification for it, he can expect some pushback from atheists about it. Are you with me so far? The pushback is not against the existence of God per se, but against the use of what atheists believe to be a nonexistent being to justify antisocial behavior. The Christian in question may also experience pushback from theists who don't believe God actually wants him to behave in that way, but that doesn't mean they're atheists and to brand them as such is not a useful rhetorical strategy.

 

[muichimotsu]

Not sure there is such a thing as an antitheist. Is that a made up term?

I have known some evangelical atheists; those who try to convert you to their way of thought.

Quick google search indicates the term is cited as early as 1833, it's hardly a new term and has arguably become more well known through Christopher Hitchens and people in a similar camp that find religion poisonous and damaging to society at large in spite of any supposed "benefits" that could be pointed to

 

[muichimotsu]

MOST "Atheists" when you talk to them are nothing more than common "Agnostics" who aren't really sure about ANYTHING. I haven't seen the term "antitheist" before, and have a suspicion that it's really only a "Fix" for the term "Atheist" which generally means "Agnostic".

Your not knowing a term does not mean it isn't commonly used in particular contexts or in a discussion that you haven't been privy to

Agnostics aren't unsure about anything, you're thinking more Pyrhhonists or extreme skeptics. Absolute certainty and justification on spiritual claims is what agnosticism, even from Huxley's definition, was criticizing, not knowledge in a general sense (like if there's an oak tree outside my house or if it's raining)

 

[muichimotsu]

The vast majority of atheists and Christians alike, in my pretty considerable experience, hold their positions almost without regard to metaphysical truth. They hold them as the result of parental indoctrination, the pronouncements of supposed authority figures, or for cultural, social or economic reasons unrelated to metaphysical truth. Many would admit as much. Few can cogently defend or even explain their positions.

Atheists, as others have suggested, run the gamut from virulently anti-theist (and mostly mindless) New Atheists to extremely thoughtful and committed atheists to those who are more properly described as agnostics or seekers to those who have no clue what they even mean by the term atheist. Pretty much ditto for Christians.

I don't think any useful purpose is served by introducing a new term such as antitheist. Would it be useful to introduce a term such as whacked-out Bible-thumper? Any discussion has to occur at an individual level. For a meaningful dialogue to take place, the believer must understand what species of atheist he is dealing with, and vice-versa for the atheist. Identifying the species is seldom difficult.

For those who haven't read it, James Fowler's 1981 classic Stages of Faith is very instructive as to how all belief systems, including atheism, "work." Across the spectrum of all belief systems, the vast majority of adherents are forever stuck at one of the lower stages where reliance is placed on authority figures and no meaningful questions are asked or allowed. For a meaningful dialogue between an atheist and a believer to take place, both participants must at least be at Fowler's stage four.

We already have a term for the virulently religious, it's called fundamentalist.

And methinks there's some generalization going on in regards to someone mocking religion and mocking the religious, because that's not the same thing. Me criticizing someone's deeply held views is not identical with insulting them as a person. Also, the "mindless" qualifier seems based on a needlessly intransigent idea that someone cannot criticize religion without having some deep bias against it instead of reasonably pointing out the problems in religion

Atheism isn't a belief system, I fail to see remotely how a response to one question is a system at all anymore than theism is a belief system but merely a position on one aspect of metaphysics.

Not sure if Christians are necessarily above circular reasoning or a particular appeal to authority even if they're not doing so in regards to people (the bible as an authority has its own issues in terms of effective argumentation, because it makes a massive assumption in itself)

 

[muichimotsu]

Many Atheists here, if not most, definitely seem to be anti-God, yet they refer to themselves as Atheist. However, I think those are the ones drawn to sites such as CF, so they can complain about how bad God is, while others may not care enough to bother, meaning you could still be correct with your assessment.

Yeah, I'm sure you're the source of being able to determine that in terms of interactions where you take even criticism of God as somehow indicative of underlying hatred of it as if it's real (not the same thing)

 

[muichimotsu]

How could a person be against God if they dont believe there is God?

It doesnt make sense.

Belief in God is what an antitheist is opposed to, they're not misotheists, that would be the phrasing that applies to being against God in the sense of it as a reality rather than merely a concept other people believe is real

 

[muichimotsu]

I've called a few out for doing just that, and I see it happen often enough here. It always tickled me why they even bother coming to CF, I mean if there's no God to disagree with, convince us he doesn't exist, tell us how bad he is, or whatever, why bother?...yet here you all are.

Because you're convinced God exists and the point is not convincing you of the opposite in some absolute sense, but actually to utilize critical thought instead of regarding God as sacrosanct

 

[muichimotsu]

And you remind me of someone who, (before I can even discuss this) is going to have to show me the sweeping generalizations,,and the unimportant details I''m being accused of zeroing in on. That should do for starters.

Maybe the whole, "atheists hate God" for starters, or are secretly just believing in God, but want to be contrarian. You've insinuated a number of things, arguably

 

[muichimotsu]

Belief in my God doesn't make people do that, being a nut case does.

You really should know better than that by now, it's a simple minded, unreasonable and unfounded accusation towards God. Your gripe is against people, yet your post sounds an awful lot like you are against God, you know, the God that doesn't exist.

The belief in God is the problem: it doesn't always lead to the problems, but the nature of the belief and what is believed in creates a tendency to not use critical thought in regards to it, regarding the entity as unquestionable and just self evident, rather than considering one might be engaging in confirmation bias to ignore anything to the contrary about that entity

Also, yeah, you're pulling a no true Scotsman fallacy, just thought you'd like to know

 

[Bob Carabbio]

Atheism isn't a belief system

(Chuckle) OF COURSE IT IS!!! there's any number of "Beliefs" that are based on the NON-EXISTENCE of deity. "Atheism" is as much a "belief system" as Christianity, or ISLAM. Most "Atheists" aren't athiests anyway - just common Agnostics.

 

[muichimotsu]

(Chuckle) OF COURSE IT IS!!! there's any number of "Beliefs" that are based on the NON-EXISTENCE of deity. "Atheism" is as much a belief system and Christianity, or ISLAM. Most "Atheists" aren't athiests anyway - just common Agnostics.

You keep saying that, it doesn't make it true, you're making bald assertions with no substance beyond commonsensical simplistic inferences

No, beliefs are rooted in a system of justification, not whether you believe or disbelieve in a deity, that's incidental

And you also think that just using agnostic in some "common" meaning suggests you've just won an argument, you really haven't, just shown you aren't willing to discuss objectively

 

[theoneandonlypencil]

I kind of want the mods to delete this topic.

I was hoping to kind of 'lighten up' some fellow Christians with an earnest attempt to show them that not every atheist is a vehement God-hater or confused agnostic. Now it's just a burning dumpster fire full of assumptions about other people that aren't even part of the conversation.

 

[muichimotsu]

That pesky us v. them mentality seems to crop up more when you are convinced of the absolute truth of what you believe in rather than having humility that it's based on faith in the first place

Atheists can be that way too, but that tends to manifest in particular ways that fundamentalists or their ilk take as a personal slight rather than criticizing the underpinning foundations of what they believe