In any case, I think it needs to be pointed out that even if all his feelings concerning atheists were accurate and spot on this would not make a case for the existence of god(s), and even less the god of his idea.
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In any case, I think it needs to be pointed out that even if all his feelings concerning atheists were accurate and spot on this would not make a case for the existence of god(s), and even less the god of his idea.I was going to rebut this point by point but I think instead I will just say I'm sorry you feel that way about us.
Determined by what?That´s completely wrong. Determination does not preclude change (of opinion). The change can be determined and not result of "freewill".
What do you mean by "arbitrarily pick our thoughts?"Actually I think that the fact that we can not arbitrarily pick our thoughts makes a strong case against "freewill".
Determined by what?
Which part of my biology, chemistry or physics led me to choose to be a fan of the Steelers and not my hometown Browns?
The determining factors for change aren´t fundamentally different than the determining factors for non-change. Change simply doesn´t indicate "freewill". Leaves turning red in autumn doesn´t indicate they have freewill.Determined by what?
In my experience my thoughts come to me. I don´t plan to have a particular thought. And even if I did, the idea to have a particular thought itself was not planned.What do you mean by "arbitrarily pick our thoughts?"
No, but leaves refusing to turn red in autumn would. My decision to respond to your post is done by my own volition. I can continue to debate this topic or end it here. Logic would tell me to end it here because if you believe in determinism, then facts would not change your opinion, that opinion would be determined. So any effort on my part would be a waste of time. Normally I would continue debating a point so long as my time and interest in the subject lasted. Right now, I have both time and interest in continuing this discussion, so according to your determinist position, I would likely continue. If I make no further posts on this thread will you accept that I have done so of my own free will, or will you claim otherwise?The determining factors for change aren´t fundamentally different than the determining factors for non-change. Change simply doesn´t indicate "freewill". Leaves turning red in autumn doesn´t indicate they have freewill.
Hmmmmm, atheists believe in a god they don't believe in...
Whether or not free will exists (I don't believe it does) doesn't negate an important need for prisons, that being the isolation of criminals from society.
marksman007 said:It is obvious as the finger at the end of your nose. They worship....THEMSELVES!!!!!
No, but leaves refusing to turn red in autumn would.
My decision to respond to your post is done by my own volition. I can continue to debate this topic or end it here. Logic would tell me to end it here because if you believe in determinism, then facts would not change your opinion, that opinion would be determined. So any effort on my part would be a waste of time.
Normally I would continue debating a point so long as my time and interest in the subject lasted. Right now, I have both time and interest in continuing this discussion, so according to your determinist position, I would likely continue.
If I make no further posts on this thread will you accept that I have done so of my own free will, or will you claim otherwise?
Taking your statement to its logical conclusion (am I allowed to do that?) when a crime is committed the person involved is made to do it by somone or something as in "the devil made me do it." That in itself is problematic as atheists don't believe that the devil exists. If that is not the case, then he exercised his free will to commit the crime.
Ok, so we have a example in which you admit it refutes your assertion that determination precludes change. Here you say that change would not indicate "freewill", but no-change would.No, but leaves refusing to turn red in autumn would.
That may be so (depending on your definition of volition) - but the question remains: What determines what you will?My decision to respond to your post is done by my own volition.
Yes, you perceive options. Doesn´t necessarily mean they are really available. But all this is not even the point of our current disagreement. The point in disagreement is your statement that without "freewill" people couldn´t change their opinion.I can continue to debate this topic or end it here.
You should try convincing me with facts, for a change.Logic would tell me to end it here because if you believe in determinism, then facts would not change your opinion, that opinion would be determined.
No, that´s not "my determinist position" - it´s an implication that you falsely ascribe to determinism.So any effort on my part would be a waste of time. Normally I would continue debating a point so long as my time and interest in the subject lasted. Right now, I have both time and interest in continuing this discussion, so according to your determinist position, I would likely continue.
Why? The point in dispute was your assertion that with determinism you can´t change. Now you want me to conclude from the fact that you keep doing what you are doing (responding) that your actions are not determined. How does that make sense?If I make no further posts on this thread will you accept that I have done so of my own free will, or will you claim otherwise?
Apart from the implied accusation that atheists are egotistical, what is wrong with self-worship?
Yes, if there is no free will then criminals commit crimes because outside forces influence their decisions. But there's usually not one thing or person that does this, and nothing we would call the devil.
Now I know why social reformers are insistient that criminals are not to blame for what they do so we musn't punish them. Doesn't work though because the devil (oops there's that naughty D word) is in the detail. Knowing without a shadow of doubt that the devil is alive and well, just as well I am not a follower of Todd not Todd.
Just as a matter of interest, if you are not Todd, who are you? Perhaps you are God as you seem to know so much.
marksman007 said:I checked a buddist site and I could not find self worship amongst its tennents. It seems a very complicated relgion and relies a lot on adherants good works to achieve whatever it is you want to achieve.
I am so grateful that my faith is not dependent on me and measuring up to a standard.
From day one I was saved by grace, not works and daily I reply upon God's grace to keep me in line wiht his will and purpose for my life.
I don't have time for self worship because I don't need it as I am complete in Christ and accepted by God through him.
What I am is irrelevant because I am dead to sin and alive to God.
BTW, it wasn't an implied accusation, it was a fact. Anyone who is a self worshipper has problems especially as it is widely known that self praise is no recommendation.
Out producingThat sounds about right.
What?
Then what motivates you to follow God's word if it decides to send you to hell or to heaven before you are even born? You could just live a life of excess and sin and nothing would matter in the long run.
It's not really THAT time consuming, is it?
And you have not sinned in the last year? Last decade? Last 50 years?
Again, that assumes that atheists worship themselves, which I highly doubt is applicable for the vast majority of atheists.
Also, self-praise is necessary for being a functioning member of society: it is also known as self-confidence. In a way, you are exhibiting self-worship, as you are not immediately saying, "Oh, I'm sorry roflcopter101, I'm totally wrong and you're right sorry sorry sorry". Additionally, it has been shown that girls like guys with massive egos. If your assertion was true that all atheists are egotistical self-worshippers, atheists would get more girls than Christians and religious people, eventually outreproducing religious people in the long run and probably leading to a world of atheists. Which is totally likely.
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