Atheist, not trolling

et superbum said:

it seems that most people deny that the bible is infallible. This goes against my most basic assumptions about the religion. Basing christianity on the teachings of christ makes more sense but it seems to me that it would be much harder.

Raise the dead - most scholars are in agreement that Jesus existed, but most of them are christian. many non christian scholars also agree that he exsited, but not everyone.

So how is it decided what the teachings of christ are?

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The bible is a reliable account by which we encounter God' story. But it is not an easy read. You will need some sensible material to help you with that at some stage.

If Jesus did exist, then who was he? What can we learn from the account of his life and his followers beliefs about him in the period after his death and resurrection?

How do we decide what Christ taught? When we recognise that the NT accounts are reliable as history, as for any other historical figure.

John
NZ

et superbum said:

My first question to this point of view is: How is it that christians get to eat pork and bacon? this doesn't make sense to me.

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Mark 7:15

"It's not what goes into your body that defiles you; you are defiled by what comes from your heart."

et superbum said:

My first question to this point of view is: How is it that christians get to eat pork and bacon? this doesn't make sense to me.

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Because bacon is yummy, and every good and perfect gift is from above.





No seriously, we have clear guidelines on the change of Covenant. OT law was only intended for Jews. Jesus Himself made it perfectly clear that what we eat is not the concern.

et superbum said:

Raise the dead - most scholars are in agreement that Jesus existed, but most of them are christian. many non christian scholars also agree that he exsited, but not everyone.

So how is it decided what the teachings of christ are?

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Ok, so 4 out of 5 dentists agree? There is one poster in these parts that has held to his doubt that Jesus ever lived. It takes great belligerence to maintain that idea, and if you trace those threads you would see what I mean. People have come from far and wide to dispel him of that notion, to no avail.

Now your last question is more to the point! Myself, I believe in individualism. I think that's what Christ was, while on earth. I think He calls us to be true to ourselves. So I am in fact saying, that it is healthy for there to be some different perspectives amongst us. That way we can each benefit from the other.

Are you familiar with the OT story of Joesph's coat of many colors? I find it speaks to exactly this phenomena. I also find that what Jesus actually meant, is echoed elsewhere in Scripture. Pursuing truth is a great thing!

Oh and welcome to CF

et superbum said:

My first question to this point of view is: How is it that christians get to eat pork and bacon? this doesn't make sense to me.

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What never made sense to me was the opposite: that some people were not supposed to eat pork. But I am not Jewish. In certain books of the OT there are many laws and prohibitions about daily living that were handed down to the Jewish people. Today, many of those are not considered binding by a great number of Jews, much less by Christians. As other posters have mentioned, those rules and teachings were countermanded by Jesus, who taught that nothing we take in from outside can corrupt us.

The issue you are really questioning here is whether the entire bible is infallible and inerrant. There are opinions on that across the spectrum. But, if one reads certain books of the OT carefully, you can readily see that Christians do not treat it as totally infallible (even if they say they do), and do not follow every command and precept contained in it. Does that make it none of it infallible or inerrant?

When someone insists on infallibility or inerrancy of the bible they become easy targets for questions like yours. But by spending time arguing about that, we don't pay enough attention to what in the Bible is really of great value, what is of critical importance to our spiritual life. It certainly isn't whether we should eat bacon.

et superbum said:

I would like to have an open and honest discussion about Christianity. I would do my best to express myself without offending. Would this community be willing to indulge me?

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Atheist not trolling is a pretty good Advert. Count me in.

in Christ

Bob

et superbum said:

My first question to this point of view is: How is it that christians get to eat pork and bacon? this doesn't make sense to me.

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The Word of God forbids those meats in Lev 11.

Christians do not have the calling to eat rats, cats, mice, bats or anything else forbidden in God's Word.

So you have a good point.

In Mark 7 (before the cross) Jewish magisterium was condemned for replacing the Word of God with man-made-traditions that claimed you could ignore the commandments of God. The Jews were condemning the disciples for eating wheat with unbaptized fingers. Jesus pointed out their error.

Then in Acts 10 -- years AFTER that Mark 7 event - the Apostle Peter states clearly that even then he was not eating rats, cats, dogs or bats. It is a NT Christian practice not to do such things.



in Christ,

Bob

et superbum said:

I am skeptical of christ's existence.

I think that there are many differences between now and two thousand years ago, but that people are much the same.

To me Christianity is a religion based on a holy text written by many different authors and assembled by the Catholic church.

There are many, many things that I would like to discuss, but we can't really talk about them all at the same time. I feel that a good place to start is with the bible itself, as it is the basis of Christianity.

Am I right in saying that the bible is the infallible word of God?

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1. The Bible is the infallible Word of God.

2. Catholics did not exist in the First century A.D.

3. In 1Thess 2 Paul said that the NT was already being accepted by people in his day as"the Word of God".

Nobody was waiting around for a few centuries until the Catholic church could form and tell them what to read.

4. The OT text was already used in the NT to test the Apostolic teaching to "study the scriptures daily and see IF those things spoken to them by the Apostle Paul were so" Acts 17:11

in Christ,

Bob

BobRyan said:

The Word of God forbids those meats in Lev 11.

Christians do not have the calling to eat rats, cats, mice, bats or anything else forbidden in God's Word.

So you have a good point.

in Christ,

Bob

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Lev 11 was written for the Israelites..they were under the Law.
We as Christians are not bound by those prohibitions..Christ fulfilled the Law.
We are now under Grace.

Gotta go, the wife wants the 'puter. .

The Word of God forbids those meats in Lev 11.

Christians do not have the calling to eat rats, cats, mice, bats or anything else forbidden in God's Word.

So you have a good point.

In Mark 7 (before the cross) Jewish magisterium was condemned for replacing the Word of God with man-made-traditions that claimed you could ignore the commandments of God. The Jews were condemning the disciples for eating wheat with unbaptized fingers. Jesus pointed out their error.

Then in Acts 10 -- years AFTER that Mark 7 event - the Apostle Peter states clearly that even then he was not eating rats, cats, dogs or bats. It is a NT Christian practice not to do such things.

freezerman2000 said:

Lev 11 was written for the Israelites..they were under the Law.
We as Christians are not bound by those prohibitions..Christ fulfilled the Law.
We are now under Grace.

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"What matters is keeping the Commandments of God" 1Corinthians 7:19.

"Do we then make void the Law of God by our faith? God forbid! In fact we establish the Law of God" Rom 3:31.

The saints are those who "keep the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus" Revelation 14:12.

The lost person "does not submit to the Law of God - neither indeed can they" Romans 8:5-8

Before the Cross - Jesus said

"If you Love Me KEEP My Commandments" John 14:12.

Read the Bible - accept the Bible.

The problem that some non-Christians see in Christianity - is a pick-and-choose issue where Christians refuse to accept the Bible that they are reading.

'It is not the hearers of the Law that are just before God but the doers of the Law will be justifIED... on the day when according to my GOSPEL God will judge the secrets of all mankind" Rom 2:13-16.

in Christ,

Bob

et superbum said:

My first question to this point of view is: How is it that christians get to eat pork and bacon? this doesn't make sense to me.

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This is an old and tired argument that has been adequately addressed.

acts 10:9-15

About noon the following day as they were on their journey and approaching the city, Peter went up on the roof to pray. 10He became hungry and wanted something to eat, and while the meal was being prepared, he fell into a trance. 11He saw heaven opened and something like a large sheet being let down to earth by its four corners. 12It contained all kinds of four-footed animals, as well as reptiles of the earth and birds of the air. 13Then a voice told him, “Get up, Peter. Kill and eat.”

14“Surely not, Lord!” Peter replied. “I have never eaten anything impure or unclean.”

15The voice spoke to him a second time, “Do not call anything impure that God has made clean.”

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A better one to cite is the prohibition on mixed fiber clothing. This was never biblically lifted to the best of my knowledge.

Actually, there is the principle of "all things are lawful to me" to which I subscribe, but it isn't popular in many evangelical circles as it moves sin to a place of personal conviction rather than divine decree.

BobRyan said:

The Word of God forbids those meats in Lev 11.

Christians do not have the calling to eat rats, cats, mice, bats or anything else forbidden in God's Word.

So you have a good point.

In Mark 7 (before the cross) Jewish magisterium was condemned for replacing the Word of God with man-made-traditions that claimed you could ignore the commandments of God. The Jews were condemning the disciples for eating wheat with unbaptized fingers. Jesus pointed out their error.

Then in Acts 10 -- years AFTER that Mark 7 event - the Apostle Peter states clearly that even then he was not eating rats, cats, dogs or bats. It is a NT Christian practice not to do such things.



"What matters is keeping the Commandments of God" 1Corinthians 7:19.

"Do we then make void the Law of God by our faith? God forbid! In fact we establish the Law of God" Rom 3:31.

The saints are those who "keep the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus" Revelation 14:12.

The lost person "does not submit to the Law of God - neither indeed can they" Romans 8:5-8

Before the Cross - Jesus said

"If you Love Me KEEP My Commandments" John 14:12.

Read the Bible - accept the Bible.

The problem that some non-Christians see in Christianity - is a pick-and-choose issue where Christians refuse to accept the Bible that they are reading.

'It is not the hearers of the Law that are just before God but the doers of the Law will be justifIED... on the day when according to my GOSPEL God will judge the secrets of all mankind" Rom 2:13-16.

in Christ,

Bob

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Colossians 2:16-23

New King James Version (NKJV)

16 So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths, 17 which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ. 18 Let no one cheat you of your reward, taking delight in false humility and worship of angels, intruding into those things which he has not[a] seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind, 19 and not holding fast to the Head, from whom all the body, nourished and knit together by joints and ligaments, grows with the increase that is from God.
20 Therefore,[b] if you died with Christ from the basic principles of the world, why, as though living in the world, do you subject yourselves to regulations— 21 “Do not touch, do not taste, do not handle,” 22 which all concern things which perish with the using—according to the commandments and doctrines of men? 23 These things indeed have an appearance of wisdom in self-imposed religion, false humility, and neglect of the body, but are of no value against the indulgence of the flesh.

et superbum said:

My first question to this point of view is: How is it that christians get to eat pork and bacon? this doesn't make sense to me.

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Christianity accepts both Jews and Gentiles. Gentiles were never forbidden from eating pork, bacon, shellfish, etc. Jews today still teach that, in fact. Since most of the church is Gentile, you will logically find many Christians who eat pork and bacon. Would I push someone I knew to be a Jewish Christian to eat pork or bacon? Absolutely not.

et superbum said:

Raise the dead - most scholars are in agreement that Jesus existed, but most of them are christian. many non christian scholars also agree that he exsited, but not everyone.

So how is it decided what the teachings of christ are?

Click to expand...

The Gospels are quite frankly the best evidence of what we have of Jesus' life and commandments, and the writings outside the Bible by both Christians and non-Christians alike corroborate what the Gospels teach. If you ask me, it is no wonder why most of the scholars are in fact Christian - the evidence is there to support their stance, while the minority who are not Christian have considerably less evidence (if any) for theirs.

I haven't posted this board in a while, but I've found all of the "Let's talk to an atheist" threads I once participated in have since been disappeared.

Of course, my own tradition thinks this is entirely appropriate. We need reminders of impermanence.

Mind if I join in? I'm effectively an atheist.

oi_antz said:

Hi, I would like to know exactly what you wish to discuss about Christianity.

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Me, I'm most interested in how it informs your behavior. What do you do, (or not do), that you would not have done, (or done), had you not become a Christian?

Which forms of self-declared Christianity do you acknowledge as Christian?

Mormons?
Episcopalians (or mainline churches in general)?
Catholics?
Jehovah's Witnesses (not sure even I would be willing to go that far)?
Pentecostals?
Muslims (hey, they revere Jesus only second to Muhammad)?

And what about the splinter groups?

Young earthers?
Geocentrists? (No joke, there's a fairly vocal group claiming Galileo got off easy, and should never have been forgiven.)
Rapture readies?
Open theists?
UFOs are angels?

Not trying to be cute, here. Those are serious questions. It's just that they're directed to you, personally, as an individual Christian, or to anyone else who'd like to join in, but not as a representative of Christianity. Quite a while back I stopped asking individual Christians what it means to be Christian, and went for the data at the Pew Forum on Religion and Public Life. Everything else is anecdote.

Do you acknowledge that Jesus died for being completely honest?

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That's a fairly common Christian perspective, but it needs the reminder that it's based on theology generated from the Bible, but not in the Bible itself. The gospels give a quite specific, and very different, answer. Jesus was executed by Pilate as an insurrectionist. Honest or dishonest, it was all the same. As a rebel, he was a dead man if they caught him, and any of his associates earned the same fate. The Romans had a history of vicious suppression of rebellions.

Insurrection was very common at the time, and continued almost without abatement until 70 CE, when the Romans came with their legions and put a final and very bloody end to the uprising. Josephus left us a good chronicle of the period in The Wars of the Jews, available with nearly all of his other writings at the link. He said the streets of Jerusalem ran red with blood. It was a slaughter.

How does that make you feel?

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It makes me wonder why you asked.

And honestly, it makes me glad I'm not living under the Romans, too.

Do you believe the world is any different in this modern era?

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We're not anywhere near as rife with kingdoms, and empires have pretty much bitten the dust. We've had to find ways to get along despite differences scarcely encountered in the insular world of first century Palestine, itself far more diverse than the period of Israel's first appearance from among the mountain tribes of Canaan.

What do you think Christianity means?

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The best answer is, "Whatever the Christian to whom you're talking wants it to mean." Certainly, there are supernatural beliefs that are held in common by a statistical majority of Christians, such as the deity of Jesus and the resurrection of the dead. But most of the religious beliefs are too diverse to admit any majority when they show up as public issues involving Christian faith, such as gay marriage, the teaching of the theory of evolution, or access to abortion services.

So, what does Christianity mean, to you?

As ever, Jesse

et superbum said:

Basing christianity on the teachings of christ makes more sense but it seems to me that it would be much harder.

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This is the thing of sin and repentence. The conscience speaks to us when we reflect upon our lives, and resolve to do better. Sometimes much easier to say than perform.

Sorry Jesse, I meant to PM this message to you wrt site rules. Only Christians can discuss with the OP. Don't want to get a good thread locked.

"What matters is keeping the Commandments of God" 1Corinthians 7:19.

"Do we then make void the Law of God by our faith? God forbid! In fact we establish the Law of God" Rom 3:31.

The saints are those who "keep the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus" Revelation 14:12.

The lost person "does not submit to the Law of God - neither indeed can they" Romans 8:5-8

Before the Cross - Jesus said

"If you Love Me KEEP My Commandments" John 14:12.

Read the Bible - accept the Bible.

The problem that some non-Christians see in Christianity - is a pick-and-choose issue where Christians refuse to accept the Bible that they are reading.

'It is not the hearers of the Law that are just before God but the doers of the Law will be justifIED... on the day when according to my GOSPEL God will judge the secrets of all mankind" Rom 2:13-16.

And of course - Matt 7 (pre-cross) "Do not judge others"

Does not change and so it still applies post-cross

renewed21 said:

Colossians 2:16-23

New King James Version (NKJV)

16 So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon .

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God is the one who judges - not man.

And God's Word is clear as to how it is done Rom 2:13-16.

in Christ,

Bob