Atheist morality.

[Paradoxum]

The problem I see, is that atheists have no real justification for believing any act to be more or less moral than any other act.

I'm an atheist and I have justification. Better justification than most Christians can give for their morals.

Richard Dawkins expressed it when he stated that the idea that rape is wrong is just as arbitrary as evolving with 5 fingers instead of 6. Which, according to atheist philosophy, makes every moral view equally arbitrary.

If Dawkins said that, then Dawkins is wrong in my opinion.

 

[Tinker Grey]

It seems to be that Christians are bound to believe that an atheist's conscience is sufficient for being moral (see Verses 14. 15):

[sup]12[/sup]All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. [sup]13[/sup]For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. [sup]14[/sup](Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. [sup]15[/sup]They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.) [sup]16[/sup]This will take place on the day when God judges people’s secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.

 

[Cute Tink]

The problem I see, is that atheists have no real justification for believing any act to be more or less moral than any other act.

This is wrong.

 

[Chany]

But that's the whole point, that's exactly the problem. Atheism allows *anything* to be moral. Atheism allows *anything* to be immoral. It's up to your own atheist opinion to do whatever you want with no justification to judge the actions of anyone else as moral or immoral. That's the whole point of "arbitrary".

In terms of a physical cosmologically dictated morality, no, nothing can ever provide something like that, not even a deity. The universe will continue on after we are all gone with utter indifference. There is no metaphysically floating thing like "justice" and "evil".

However, the second one realizes that morality is introspective and local, it becomes real. Morality matters to us humans because it affects us. I don't like getting stabbed and killed. People, in general, don't like getting stabbed and killed. It is considered a mental disorder to hurt oneself in this manner and want to get stabbed and killed. The second one shifts morality from the cosmological and metaphysical scale and realizes morality is about increasing the well-being of fellow sentient and/or sapient beings, it becomes apparent that morality exists.

 

[goggles]

That's the darndest thing about some people, they change their minds when new informations are represented. Good to hear you are more resistant than that, Counselor.

That's perfect.

But that's the whole point, that's exactly the problem. Atheism allows *anything* to be moral.

No no no.

It's up to your own atheist opinion to do whatever you want with no justification to judge the actions of anyone else as moral or immoral. That's the whole point of "arbitrary".

It's up to us to make up our own minds based on our experiences and knowledge as well as the cultural values and society we live in. It's nice to think a higher power just gave you a set of rules you can live by but it doesn't really work when you harm the people around you in his name is it? Of course this does not apply for the vast majority of Christians and I'm sure most Christians are wonderful people as are atheists and most people. But if you have been on the receiving end of ignorance, bigotry and hypocrisy that many not just Christian but religious people in general possess, you would think otherwise.

There are many horrible people in the world religious or not and it shouldn't come as a surprise (although it might) that many of them are Christian. Just because you accept the grace of God does not mean a damn thing.

 

[Chany]

That's the darndest thing about some people, they change their minds when new informations are represented. Good to hear you are more resistant than that, Counselor.

I personally hypothesize that proper morality is a developing area of humanity, like knowledge and scientific discovery. I expect for morality to change as new information comes into consideration.

 

[selfinflikted]

I personally hypothesize that proper morality is a developing area of humanity, like knowledge and scientific discovery. I expect for morality to change as new information comes into consideration.

Absolutely. I concur.

 

[Gadarene]

In terms of a physical cosmologically dictated morality, no, nothing can ever provide something like that, not even a deity. The universe will continue on after we are all gone with utter indifference. There is no metaphysically floating thing like "justice" and "evil".

However, the second one realizes that morality is introspective and local, it becomes real. Morality matters to us humans because it affects us. I don't like getting stabbed and killed. People, in general, don't like getting stabbed and killed. It is considered a mental disorder to hurt oneself in this manner and want to get stabbed and killed. The second one shifts morality from the cosmological and metaphysical scale and realizes morality is about increasing the well-being of fellow sentient and/or sapient beings, it becomes apparent that morality exists.

Right. The quote seems to me to be suggesting that morality is arbitrary from an evolutionary point of view - i.e. there is no personal agent in nature who is dictating morality and handing things out (unlike in a theistic worldview), which is what the context of that conversation was about.

That doesn't mean it isn't helpful and necessary - to say that the idea that our evolution of morals was arbitrary is license to do as we please is about as dumb as saying that the idea that our finger total is arbitrary is license to go around cutting people's fingers off.

As you correctly point out, morality nonetheless affects us and is important to us. It would be an utter denial of fact to claim otherwise. I don't see how the idea of morality having an evolutionary component affects my utilitarianism, for example. It doesn't address whether it's true or false or not. It seems utterly irrelevant to it, frankly.

Edit: Also, I don't see how "my god says it's wrong" ISN'T arbitrary either.

 

[Deidre32]

This is an interesting thread topic to me, as I come from a Christian upbringing. And followed the faith for a long after that. As an atheist myself, I can't help but wonder if my "morals" for lack of a better word, have been embedded in me from a Christian background.

But, in living independent of religion now, I view my own sense of ethics as trying to be good to those around me. Doing unto others as I would wish to have done unto me. Altruism is a component of evolution and even the animal kingdom expresses it. So, animals don't follow a deity, yet show altruism. My opinion, evolution cultivated humanity's value system in a natural way, which is why many atheists give to charities and are quite unselfish. Morality is a term that means different things to different people. I see nothing wrong with two gay men marrying, but many religious people do. They may deem homosexuality to be immoral but I don't. But, I thought this way as a Christian too.

I had mixed feelings about atheism, until I left religion and became an atheist. It's really not at all what you might think.

 

[GoldenBoy89]

I had mixed feelings about atheism, until I left religion and became an atheist. It's really not at all what you might think.

Right?! The barbecued kittens are so much tastier than they sound!

 

[PsychoSarah]

But that's the whole point, that's exactly the problem. Atheism allows *anything* to be moral. Atheism allows *anything* to be immoral. It's up to your own atheist opinion to do whatever you want with no justification to judge the actions of anyone else as moral or immoral. That's the whole point of "arbitrary".

Morality in and of itself is in many ways learned. Just because we were taught it by our parents more than by a book doesn't mean we lack morals in the slightest or feel than anything can be moral.

 

[Deidre32]

Right?! The barbecued kittens are so much tastier than they sound!

you're funny

 

[PsychoSarah]

Right?! The barbecued kittens are so much tastier than they sound!

-_-

 

[BuffaloJack]

That's not true at all. Atheists get their morals mostly from the very same places Christians get theirs - although you will be hard pressed to find a Christian who will admit as much.

I wager atheists and Christians have far more in common morally, than not.

As they don't believe in God, no, atheists don't get their morals from the same place. Also, I'm not talking about simply having morals, or about having similar morals. I'm talking about *justifying* one's morals.

 

[BuffaloJack]

I'm an atheist and I have justification. Better justification than most Christians can give for their morals.

So you claim. Thanks for sharing.

If Dawkins said that, then Dawkins is wrong in my opinion.

Right, your *opinion*. Why is your opinion better?

 

[BuffaloJack]

[atheists have no real justification for believing any act to be more or less moral than any other act.] is wrong.

I'm sure you think that. Thanks for sharing.

 

[BuffaloJack]

No no no.

It's up to us to make up our own minds based on our experiences and knowledge as well as the cultural values and society we live in. It's nice to think a higher power just gave you a set of rules you can live by but it doesn't really work when you harm the people around you in his name is it? Of course this does not apply for the vast majority of Christians and I'm sure most Christians are wonderful people as are atheists and most people. But if you have been on the receiving end of ignorance, bigotry and hypocrisy that many not just Christian but religious people in general possess, you would think otherwise.

There are many horrible people in the world religious or not and it shouldn't come as a surprise (although it might) that many of them are Christian. Just because you accept the grace of God does not mean a damn thing.

Like everyone else, you share mere opinion without any supporting facts that actually justify an atheist believing any act is more/less moral than any other act.

 

[Cute Tink]

I'm sure you think that. Thanks for sharing.

I see you don't care. Feel free to live in ignorance. Someone interested in truth might actually ask instead of assuming they already know better.

 

[BuffaloJack]

That doesn't mean it isn't helpful and necessary - to say that the idea that our evolution of morals was arbitrary is license to do as we please is about as dumb as saying that the idea that our finger total is arbitrary is license to go around cutting people's fingers off.

As you correctly point out, morality nonetheless affects us and is important to us. It would be an utter denial of fact to claim otherwise. I don't see how the idea of morality having an evolutionary component affects my utilitarianism, for example. It doesn't address whether it's true or false or not. It seems utterly irrelevant to it, frankly.

I never claimed atheists have no use for morals. I claimed they can't really justify the idea that any act is more or less moral than any other act.

Edit: Also, I don't see how "my god says it's wrong" ISN'T arbitrary either.

By Christian philosophy, God *is* good, so it would, by definition, not be arbitrary.

 

[BuffaloJack]

Morality in and of itself is in many ways learned. Just because we were taught it by our parents more than by a book doesn't mean we lack morals in the slightest or feel than anything can be moral.

I never said you can't have morals, and I never said you can't feel something is immoral. I said you can't justify it.