Atheist morality.

[Cearbhall]

I never believe this.

If you choose to claim that every demographic survey is wrong, then I don't see how we can have a constructive discussion about religion and morality in the US.

The new moral standards in society are no moral standards really.

Nope. Again, you're just struggling to let those who disagree with you call their moral code a moral code.

 

[stevevw]

Religious theocrats.



...Anyway...

Yeah, we really could do a whole lot worse. Would you really be willing to move to a country that dictates what you can wear, what you can eat, what books you can read, etc...?

So I guess we just accept it and go along with it all because it aint as bad as other places. Thats sad. Maybe belonging to a theocracy isn't so bad after all.

 

[stevevw]

If you choose to claim that every demographic survey is wrong, then I don't see how we can have a constructive discussion about religion and morality in the US.

Are you saying the survey is saying that 74% of people in the US are Christians. Or are you saying that 74% of people just identify with this meaning they are not practicing Christians but maybe were once of are bey birth. Has the survey made any distinction between this. Or do you want to imply this for the sake of making a point. Surveys can be used for what ever point you want to make if you dont define what it is exactly they are saying.

Nope. Again, you're just struggling to let those who disagree with you call their moral code a moral code.

what is their moral code.

 

[Cearbhall]

Surveys can be used for what ever point you want to make if you dont define what it is exactly they are saying.

We're talking about every major polling organization in the US. If you want to believe that you know better than every professional, that's fine, but don't expect me to pay you any mind. Roughly 74% of Americans identify as Christian, which means they're Christian from a research standpoint.

 

[stevevw]

I just saw some article on miley Cyrus on taking drugs. Evidently she is into this molly whatever it is and has admitted smoking pot. Along with Justin bieber and other movie and music stars they can have a big impact on the trends and behaviors of young people. So when they do something normally young people follow. From being Hannah Montanan and having a more positive image she is now acting like the alter ego of Hannah in some weird publicity stunt. She once said about wearing that teddy bear costume as part of her act.

When I'm dressed in that teddy bear thing, I think that's funny. I was saying yesterday, I had this obsession about this character that's like an adult baby. Like if you see a baby do something like that it's so warped and weird, but there's something creepily hot about it. So when I'm in that teddy bear suit, I'm like a creepy, sexy baby.

Read more: Miley Cyrus on Weed, Molly, the VMAs and More | Music News | Rolling Stone
Follow us: @rollingstone on Twitter | RollingStone on Facebook
​

Isn't this a bit weird and sending mixed messages to the young and other perverts. I think its having a negative affect on young people especially young girls. Normally you begin to see the same type of behavior happen in young people from whatever these icons behave. So you will see an increase in the use of drugs like molly and similar behaviors as what these stars are doing. They are role models and have a big influence on people.

 

[Strathos]

Almost all young celebrities do drugs and break the law. It's part of the vanity of fame.

 

[JGG]

So I guess we just accept it and go along with it all because it aint as bad as other places. Thats sad. Maybe belonging to a theocracy isn't so bad after all.

No a theocracy is all bad. There is no upside to it. I have no desire to live beneath my Christian overlords.

 

[stevevw]

We're talking about every major polling organization in the US. If you want to believe that you know better than every professional, that's fine, but don't expect me to pay you any mind. Roughly 74% of Americans identify as Christian, which means they're Christian from a research standpoint.

I dont doubt the surveys finding that 74% of Americans identified as Christians. What I doubt is their interpretations of what they thought a christian was or is. And the survey doesn't say that they are Christians, it says that the people who were asked merely said they were Christians which is a big difference. When you go into any breakdown of surveys to get a more detailed picture you begin to find the reasons behind why they believe what they do. Such as some believe Satan is not a real entity but a symbol and the same for the holy spirit. A lot of Americans struggle with what their faith is and have been shaped by what Hollywood and how they portray things like Satan. Many dont believe in some core elements of Christianity but still say they are Christians. Other surveys have shown that Atheists and agnostics have scored better than Christians on religious knowledge so it goes to show how much people really know about their religion and how reliable these surveys can be.

Another aspect of the surveys show that the sharpest increase though was a drop in beliefs and people moving away from religion and Christianity. So if that trend continues then less people will be Christians in the years to come. America should be a christian nation as that is what it was founded on and the same for some other countries like Britain and some European countries like Italy for example. So its not to surprising to find the majority saying they have religious affiliations. Its just the quality of the survey I doubt not the quantity. You could look at it another way and say that non believers are in the minority and God is believed in by more people in the Us which puts you out of line with most. So it depends on how you look at it.

 

[Cearbhall]

And the survey doesn't say that they are Christians, it says that the people who were asked merely said they were Christians which is a big difference.

I understand that you feel that way. We had a lengthy and pointless discussion about it. My opinions about religious identity haven't changed. I will continue to respect the labels that people give themselves and refer to self-identified Christians as Christians.

 

[stevevw]

I understand that you feel that way. We had a lengthy and pointless discussion about it. My opinions about religious identity haven't changed. I will continue to respect the labels that people give themselves and refer to self-identified Christians as Christians.

Thats fair enough. But just another point, do you think America is a good example of Christianity.

 

[Hikarifuru]

Thats fair enough. But just another point, do you think America is a good example of Christianity.

I think it is. Now I wouldn't say it's a good example of the DOCTRINES found within the book and that's because I don't believe those doctrines are reasonable and I don't expect them to be lived out, but as far as representing what Christianity is and should/would probably produce... yes I do think so.

I think America does demonstrate what Christianity is and is likely to produce, most Americans are trying to live it out after all, though with varying levels of efforts. I believe America demonstrates the problems, short comings, impossibilities of Christianity, it represents how people will always try to be what is found within the book and ultimately they will fail because the book provides unreasonable teachings, humans are contrary to it's axioms and it gives false hopes... and this is why Christianity survives on faith, only faith could compel the Christian heart to carry on under that burden and without the success they long for.

I think the fact that most Christians are trying to failing and blaming their own selves for their failures and finding hope in a "grace" is very telling and also very sad. I also think it's sad and brutal that Christians point their fingers at each other when another fails or they all fail in order to find blame that crafts security for their selves. I sometimes really wish I could rescue my christian friends from these painful and agonizing ideas. But they only seek hope, the pain that drove me away from Christianity compels them to stay, they seek relief. I can't patronize them for it. I just hope that one day they will see.

 

[stevevw]

I think it is. Now I wouldn't say it's a good example of the DOCTRINES found within the book and that's because I don't believe those doctrines are reasonable and I don't expect them to be lived out, but as far as representing what Christianity is and should/would probably produce... yes I do think so.

I think America does demonstrate what Christianity is and is likely to produce, most Americans are trying to live it out after all, though with varying levels of efforts. I believe America demonstrates the problems, short comings, impossibilities of Christianity, it represents how people will always try to be what is found within the book and ultimately they will fail because the book provides unreasonable teachings, humans are contrary to it's axioms and it gives false hopes... and this is why Christianity survives on faith, only faith could compel the Christian heart to carry on under that burden and without the success they long for.

I think the fact that most Christians are trying to failing and blaming their own selves for their failures and finding hope in a "grace" is very telling and also very sad. I also think it's sad and brutal that Christians point their fingers at each other when another fails or they all fail in order to find blame that crafts security for their selves. I sometimes really wish I could rescue my christian friends from these painful and agonizing ideas. But they only seek hope, the pain that drove me away from Christianity compels them to stay, they seek relief. I can't patronize them for it. I just hope that one day they will see.

Yeah I guess the US has a little of everything about it. The best and the worst of things as well. I have always seen them as the tele evangelists we see here in Australia and what we here about the bible belt areas and around Utah and the Mormons. Also things like the Waco cults and other cults that pop up from time to time. Yet the US will stand on religion in politics and even have religious parties that have a fair amount of power.

But that what I think ruins any true and balanced view by the powerful smaller groups who get in the headlines and try to hijack things for their own agenda. If it begins to involve extreme ideas and actions like death threats and dogmatic points of view then I think this is a big turn off and is not being Christ like but mixing it with personal motives that are made up from hatred, intolerance and bigotry.

Just because its religion doesn't mean it cant be abused. We are seeing this with the catholic church and there is a big shake up happening. I like the new pope and this is how it should be. In fact if they are going to be truly Christ like they should start selling a lot of their assets and helping the poor. I do think there are changes happening in the church and the spirit of God is coming down upon people and moving them to live how we should be living as a Christian. If we are to show the world an example of Gods love then we need to put actions to the words and start to help others in a big way and make some sacrifices that mean something instead of trying to have the best of both worlds. I think there will be some great things happening soon but also it will be a time of testing as there will be some challenges as people oppose God and also with the confrontation the church being persecuted.

 

[stevevw]

No a theocracy is all bad. There is no upside to it. I have no desire to live beneath my Christian overlords.

Its funny you should say that. I was thinking about the different forms of ruling systems. We live in a democracy in the western countries which is great. But I suspect that things are not as free as we think. With the development of multi nationals and the banking system and our economies subject to the stock markets. It seems we go through this boom bust cycle which is getting bigger and closer together as we go along. Each time we seem to end up in worse debt and with longer and deeper recessions. So how long can this go on. I know The US has deterred dealing with their debt with an increase in the debt ceiling. But what happens then is we begin to make the same mistakes again. Pushing the share market up again, trying to inflate the housing market and everything is motivated by making profits at the expense of people and what is best for our societies. The control really belongs to a small group of wealthy and powerful people who call the shots. We could end up losing a lot of control if things go pear shape.

It could take just a couple of natural disasters and a few situations where some of the debtors cant service their loans and the system could fall again. But maybe it will get to a point where people will be told what they can and cant have. There maybe rations and we will have to control resources like fuel and energy. It could end up like the bible talks about in revelations where everyone will have a number or ID so that the Governments can control things. That would mean that the very system we believed in so much ends up taking our freedoms. So long as we are not looking after people first we will always fail and the system will collasp again and again.

So what is the alternative. Do we have a form of socialism or even a form of communism. Maybe a republic or what about a monarchy. I dont think a theocracy is such a bad Idea. It seemed to work in the bible days for Israel. When ever the great kingdoms had moved away from obeying God that is when they went off the track and things started to fall apart. Maybe we are so far away from that we will never accept that form of rule again. We are to use to having the control and being the Gods of our own destinies.

 

[Hikarifuru]

Steve

I already told you that you'd point the fingers at others, but like I said these people are trying to be christians. All Christians fail and hope in grace and press on in faith... impossible expectations require both

 

[stevevw]

Steve

I already told you that you'd point the fingers at others, but like I said these people are trying to be christians. All Christians fail and hope in grace and press on in faith... impossible expectations require both

Sorry are you saying I would point my finger at others. I dont think you know me well enough to being saying that if thats what your inferring. I hope this isn't what you are saying as I havnt pointed the finger at anyone.

 

[ErnestoPoet]

Okay, I am new and thought of posting as a way of jumping in. What would you all think about Behavioral Economics and Dan Ariely's finding about cheating. A quick over view, he designed a test where he tracked people's cheating. Most people cheated just a little. He then repeated the test, but before the test, he had people first try to recall the 10 commandments. The cheating stopped after the 10 commandments (even among those that claimed to be atheists.) This scientific experiment on the effects of religion on morality and it was positive.
Dan Ariely cheating «

 

[ArAvalon]

I think purely scientific atheism has its benefits to society. It has purged old superstitions, and strengthened the will of the truly religious (not the superstitious who account for most of the so-called religious population). Nonetheless, all this while atheism has been in the hands of the intellectual elite, but in the progression of time new atheist movements arise - the secularist pseudo-religious atheism of the masses ("New Atheism" or "Atheism+"). When the masses begin to alter themselves into these forms, they bring along all their undesirable traits as well. The same minds who once thought Jesus rode a T-rex will adapt themselves to atheist myths, such as the Roman invention of Jesus, or worse still, that "it was the aliens who done it". The humorous aspect is they will lay claims of their new so-called enlightenment and point to Christian superstitions, right before immersing themselves in beliefs that have no basis in science or true-religion, and which have long been refuted by the best religious and secular authorities alike. I understand that many atheists are "not like that", but judging from the filth and misinformation on some of the New Atheist haunts, it becomes quite obvious of things to come.

Human history is cyclical, as it says in Ecclesiastes 1:9: "What has been is what will be, and what has been done is what will be done; there is nothing new under the sun." So it is folly to think that we can expect anything different from an atheistic society, judging from its history.

Don't believe in them - when you're dead, you're dead. All their talk of Karman is nonsense. One of the materialists said, 'If a man went north of the Ganges and murdered, and tortured, and stole, and plundered and set buildings on fire, he would make no bad Karman. If another man went south of the Ganges and gave in charity, and helped the weak and healed the sick, he would make no good Karman. You live as a combination of the four elements, but when you die, everything is finished. So borrow money and live as happily as you can, for when you're dead, they can't pursue you.

-Śramaṇa saying

I imagine this will soon be the prevailing philosophy of the masses, which isn't necessarily a bad thing for the truly religious minority.

 

[Gadarene]

Aw, what a special little snowflake you are

and with so few sources too

 

[ArAvalon]

Aw, what a special little snowflake you are

and with so few sources too

Nice ad hominem attack there, it really says a lot

There is already a wealth of information on historical cycles, and numerous examples of the effect of atheism on the masses. What is it you want sources for exactly?

 

[bhsmte]

Nice ad hominem attack there, it really says a lot

There is already a wealth of information on historical cycles, and numerous examples of the effect of atheism on the masses. What is it you want sources for exactly?

Really, is that why quality of life indicators, education levels and crime rates tend to be lower in many countries with higher amounts of non-believers?