Well I don't think there was a specific point were I experienced 'it'. I had it throughout my life when I was a catholic. I had dreams that I was in heaven and with my guardian angel. I felt truly loved, especially after going through tough times. I felt bad whenever I didn't go to church. But everytime I went to church and read more of the bible, I felt closer to god. I felt that I could have an intimate conversation with god. So to answer your question how, well I don't know one specific time, it just came natural for me.
Well reason. For 18 1/2 years I always kept reason and faith in two complete categories. I never thought I could ever mix them both. So I went to college, I began to learn more about other peoples beliefs. So at first it started with politics, then it slowly moved on until I reached the question of god? is god real? So for weeks I was in this journey to find out the 'truth'. Slowly after applying reason and logic, I slowly started losing my 'faith'. I read the bible, thought about the existence of god, and I found so many contradictions and incompatibilities. So then I asked myself could god be imaginary, simply a human thought? The answer is yes, its possible. Then I became agostic, so I started reading things on memetics, or the study how ideas 'move', I studied philosophy, and then after much consideration, I found that god is improbable, so thats when I lost my belief in god.
Well it was just a creation of my own mind. Just like santa clause, but for adults. The idea of god was reinforced by my family and community I lived in. It was the 'norm'. Christianity is the 'norm'. You have so many support groups, you have a family, not just your immediate family, but all fellow christians. You have hope for a better future, heaven. You are not alone in loniest of times. The combination of these and more things just makes you reinforce the idea that god truely exists and loves you. Love is the secret ingredient.
So what did I experience? I experience love from a creation of my own reality.
Please allow me to be frank, sir. I think if we are to have meaningful conversation, especially on a Christian-themed forum, we must be honest with each other.
From my own experience of interacting with atheists, you are a "typical" case in one being an atheist who claims to have been religious. I'm not saying that you're not unique as a person, but it seems that your history of religious experience isn't one that what many Christians would call "a personal relationship with God". Without that personal relationship, no wonder the distance between you and Him increased until you stopped believing!
The first question I asked was phrased deliberately to tease out a specific answer to judge my current conclusion of your religious past, and in a sense, you jumped right into the trap, even in the first sentence of your reply!--"I don't think there was a specific point were I experienced 'it'".
Christians who have a personal relationship with God will tell you that there are specific times when they experience the hand of God, or hear Him speak. The Bible is full of examples of specific encounters with God, especially the first-time: specific, recallable encounters. I list some Biblical examples:
Moses meets God in the burning bush in Exodus 3
God calls Samuel in his sleep in Judges 3
God meets Peter on Peter's fishing boat in Luke 5
God's Spirit rests on the early church on Pentecost in Acts 2
I can also point to a specific point in which God met me. To cut the long story short, I was also raised in a Christian family, doing all the stuff that was supposed to be done: church, worship, even serving, whatever.
I got baptised when I was 14, but I tell you, the time I really met God for the first time in my life on 15 November 2009 (exactly a month ago). It would take far too long to tell the story, but it suffices for now to say that experiencing God is a very specific event, with life-changing consequences. This was true for me, as is true for Moses, Samuel, Peter and the saints--their lives were completely transformed by their encounter with God.
You, I believe, are msising that encounter, which is a massive pity. You really need to experience it to know what I'm talking about!!!
It's not to say you won't ever encounter it, but there are some conditions that have to be satisfied first. More on it if you're interested.
Yes, I agree self-love is unchristian, but the point I was trying to make is that you can still love. Atheists can still have love between two people, it doesn't matter if they are christian or buddist or hindu or any other belief. Love is universal.
Also you don't need two people for christianity to be real. All you need is one. As long that person believes, and has the idea of christianity on his head, christianity will always exist, only till its forgotten it is gone. If right now someone mmade up a religion, like lets say belief in that cats are gods, wouldn't doubt this has been done before, but as long in his reality, cats are gods, it will be 'real', until he is the last person who believes it. So what did I experience, like I said before, a creation of my own reality.
Yes, atheists can love. I do not dispute that! The distinction that I'm drawing is that atheists can love both themselves and others. But true Christians cannot love themselves. There must be two to make it work.
Christianity is not an idea, or a philosophy. It's a mode of life, an action.
But that's by the point now, I think. This specific debate won't go anywhere. Let's just agree to disagree. You may have the final word if you like, but please forgive me as I will not respond in substance, though I will note your point.
Skeptic90 said:
I agree, all you need is a small amount in faith in anything. Without it, we will get nowhere. In science you need a small amount of faith that your hypothesis is, more or less, correct. Just a small degree of certainty, not comllete, but minuscule. Without it we would be beings who will do nothing but doubt and do nothing to pursue the truth.
The major difference I see between faith between atheists and theists, is how far they take it. I have a small amount of faith that god may exist, but it doesn't mean I believe it. I just think there is a small amount of chance. In the other hand, theists are sure that there is a god, they have more faith, if you would like to say, than we do. So what is different, we put faith secondary of reason, theists put reason secondary of faith. Certainty vs uncertainty.
It's a great step for you to recognise not only the existence, but usefulness, of faith! Too many atheists have refused to do that, but I suppose my, or our, delivery of the explanation, was just sub-standard.
Returning to the point about me meeting God four Sundays ago, it had nothing to do with faith.
People don't just have faith because of nothing. Remember, faith is a tool to change an existing situation into something completely new, or do something that has never been done before. To be in a situation to use faith, there must be two factors:
1. The existing situation or state of affairs must be unbearable, or unacceptable. That is only reason why anyone would think of something new to do, or dream of a better future. So Washington thought that British rule was unbearable, Columbus thought that the route east to China was too expensive, and I thought that my life before meeting God was crap.
2. They must know what they want to achieve, i.e. a vision of the alternative. For Washington it was a new, fair and just nation. For Columbus it was a profitable trade route. For me, it was the kind of life that I could lead if I accepted God as my guide.
Only
then will he make a plan to change the situation. Reason, which is really a logical assessment of what has gone before, and emotion, an instant judgment of what is happening now, are used in these stages.
Washington began to plan for a revolution. Columbus built his ships. I sought God.
But faith is what triggers the next step: whether the person acutally acts to change the situation, or to do the new action.
A question worth considering, about the "sizes" of faith. Do you think it requires greater faith to believe in a God, who many others already testify the existence, presence and activity of, or to believe that sailing west from Portugal will bring you to China, even though no Chinese person has ever come from the west and no European has ever gone to China by going west--basically, zero evidence that China lies at the west of Europe?
I think it's the latter. In that sense, Columbus probably had a greater faith in embarking on his trip than what I had when I found God.
Skeptic90 said:
Now the other thing that separates theists and atheists is how certain they are. We atheists live an uncertain world, and we accept that. While theists live in a certain world. [FONT="]Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. [/FONT]
Yes, sir. But the Truth, no matter how many times, or in what direction you question it from, will remain the Truth. It is our belief in the Truth that allows Christians to live in an uncertain world. Yes, Christians know and accept that the world is uncertain, but we have the Truth to hold on to, whereas atheists have absolutely nothing to hold on to in the long term.
Unfortunately many people are just stubbornly blind to the Truth, in which case, one would have to open their eyes and prepare their heart to at least hear what the Truth has to say.