Atheist/Christian Discussions

[MishSill]

Thanks. I'm one of those people whose brain works backwards, so I can read instructions (for example to assemble something I bought) and they are usually not very clear to me. "Does 'left hand side' mean from the gizmo or from my perspective looking at the gizmo..." So I always worry when I try to assemble something or install something on my computer, because I have a talent for finding the wrong way of understanding instructions.

When I read the forum rules, I find that I'm not sure exactly what they mean. I used to think that I could bend rules here and there as long as I was not being a jerk and stirring up trouble. Maybe it is my imagination, but it seems like things have changed since I changed my label from "seeker" to "atheist". It seems like atheists are treated with more suspicion, but that may be only my imagination.

I guess I will ask questions and see how it goes.

I have a lot of fun too trying to assemble things I bought that come in bits and pieces.

I feel the purpose of this particular forum and its rules is that a non-christian can ask questions for christians to answer. The rules simply are that no other non-christian can get on and answer, otherwise you wouldn't be getting the christian perspective. If you read another non-christian's post and want to join in, all you have to do is simply post your question on a separate thread to once again get the christian perspective.

Hope this helps.

Blessings
Mish

 

[As I was saying]

Most atheists know all about Christianity already. Most Christians know all about atheism already.

Having been dialoguing with atheists for some time, I find this not to be true. Most atheist do not understand Christianity. They understand their version of it which is not Christianity. They are fixated on the Old Testament and rarely use any parts of the New Testament, probably because they can’t bash God and Christians with words such as “love your neighbour as yourself.”

At the same time the Word of God says that the natural man cannot discern the things of the spirit so that means an atheist hasn't a hope in hell of understand God and his word unless God in his mercy reveals the truth to them by his spirit.

It doesn't help if one of the high priests of the new atheism is such a dill. I recently watched three programmes on TV that featured Richard Dawkins. He was woeful. In discussing sex he said there was nothing wrong with sexual lust. Tell that to the person who has been raped.

He visited a special school run by a Christian and which emphasised Christian principles for living. The students were on the fringe of life as they were fatherless and had drifted into gangs. The school was rescuing them and they were attentive, well mannered, respectful and educationally aware.

Dawkins admitted that they were doing a good job but he was offended that they were being taught from a Christian perspective. Doh!

At the same time I haven’t found too many Christians who you could have a conversation with about atheism. It seems as thought the church thinks that atheism doesn't exist as I have never hear any teaching on the subject from any church I have attended.

 

[cloudyday2]

Having been dialoguing with atheists for some time, I find this not to be true. Most atheist do not understand Christianity. They understand their version of it which is not Christianity. They are fixated on the Old Testament and rarely use any parts of the New Testament, probably because they can’t bash God and Christians with words such as “love your neighbour as yourself.”

I agree that the OT is a popular target, but I've also seen a lot of attacks on the historical accounts presented in the four gospels. Also, there are authors like Bart Ehrman who explain the history of the NT and early Christianity more generally. Lastly, atheists on the internet often claim that Jesus was mythical like Homer - even though 99% of scholars believe that Jesus was a real person.

Don't forget the philosophical arguments such as the problem of evil. Those attacks assume properties of God and show that they contradict reality. Of course theists have their own philosophical counter arguments. But none of that involves the Bible specifically.

It doesn't help if one of the high priests of the new atheism is such a dill. I recently watched three programmes on TV that featured Richard Dawkins...

I might be an oddball atheist, but I've never read any atheist authors such as Dawkins or watched them debate religion. I have read "Caught in the Pulpit" by Daniel Dennett, but that book was not an argument for atheism - it was just interviews with atheist clergy. I have read several books about the early history of Judaism and Christianity. Those books helped me lose faith. (What helped me lose faith more than anything else was simply being disappointed with God's indifference to my efforts to seek him. I took the Christian car for a test drive and it wouldn't go anywhere unless I got outside and pushed it.)

At the same time I haven’t found too many Christians who you could have a conversation with about atheism. It seems as thought the church thinks that atheism doesn't exist as I have never hear any teaching on the subject from any church I have attended.

In my experience, Christians don't like atheists. Atheists are very unpopular in public opinion polls.

 

[MishSill]

(What helped me lose faith more than anything else was simply being disappointed with God's indifference to my efforts to seek him. I took the Christian car for a test drive and it wouldn't go anywhere unless I got outside and pushed it.)

Hi Cloudy,

I'm sorry to hear that you had that experience.

Are you happy to share what you did when you took the christian car for a test drive?

For example were you seeking Him to prove Himself so you would know for sure he existed?

Were you seeking His love/forgiveness?

Did you talk to God in prayer?

Maybe you weren't sure what to seek?

Just trying to get an idea so I can give you a leg up on that difficult horse.

Blessings
Mish

 

[cloudyday2]

Hi Cloudy,

I'm sorry to hear that you had that experience.

Are you happy to share what you did when you took the christian car for a test drive?

For example were you seeking Him to prove Himself so you would know for sure he existed?

Yes. I expected God to interact with me in some way - supernatural experiences and/or personal growth to become more like Christ. Otherwise I might as well worship a rock if I don't expect God to interact with me. I had some "supernatural" experiences, and this motivated me to push-out the old Christmobile one last time after it had been rusting away in my back yard for the past 20 years. I had a hard time understanding the guidance of my "supernatural" experiences, and God didn't seem to be interested in helping me become more like Christ. After a couple of years, I became skeptical and later realized that I had been having hallucinations and delusions. I couldn't understand my "supernatural" experiences, because they were mental illness. And I couldn't become more Christlike, because God was out of the office apparently. I was Eastern Orthodox during that time FWIW.

Were you seeking His love/forgiveness?

Not so much. I figured it was more about trusting and appreciating in the love/forgiveness rather than acquiring it.

Did you talk to God in prayer?

Yes, but it was usually a one way conversation. The only "answers" I got were "supernatural" experiences that were a bit like looking at an ink blot; they could mean anything.

Maybe you weren't sure what to seek?

I think I had fairly clear expectations for God. Some theists might say we should expect nothing from God, but I would say that is like worshiping a rock.

Just trying to get an idea so I can give you a leg up on that difficult horse.

thanks

 

[MishSill]

Yes. I expected God to interact with me in some way - supernatural experiences and/or personal growth to become more like Christ. Otherwise I might as well worship a rock if I don't expect God to interact with me. I had some "supernatural" experiences, and this motivated me to push-out the old Christmobile one last time after it had been rusting away in my back yard for the past 20 years. I had a hard time understanding the guidance of my "supernatural" experiences, and God didn't seem to be interested in helping me become more like Christ. After a couple of years, I became skeptical and later realized that I had been having hallucinations and delusions. I couldn't understand my "supernatural" experiences, because they were mental illness. And I couldn't become more Christlike, because God was out of the office apparently. I was Eastern Orthodox during that time FWIW.


Not so much. I figured it was more about trusting and appreciating in the love/forgiveness rather than acquiring it.


Yes, but it was usually a one way conversation. The only "answers" I got were "supernatural" experiences that were a bit like looking at an ink blot; they could mean anything.


I think I had fairly clear expectations for God. Some theists might say we should expect nothing from God, but I would say that is like worshiping a rock.


thanks

You mentioned supernatural experiences.

I think a number of Christians, myself included have experienced those.

That doesn't mean a person has a mental illness. It sounds like the timing of the supernatural experiences appear to have happened while you were praying, so maybe in response to what you were praying for... would that be right?

Would you like to share what you experienced? If you're uncomfortable on here you are welcome to private message me.

Blessings
Mish

 

[cloudyday2]

You mentioned supernatural experiences.

I think a number of Christians, myself included have experienced those.

That doesn't mean a person has a mental illness. It sounds like the timing of the supernatural experiences appear to have happened while you were praying, so maybe in response to what you were praying for... would that be right?

Would you like to share what you experienced? If you're uncomfortable on here you are welcome to private message me.

Blessings
Mish

In my case, many of my experiences were clearly mental illness, and some of them were not so clearly mental illness. The fact that they were mixed together makes me inclined to discount all of them.

EDIT: I started to give some examples, but I erased them. I recovered from whatever was wrong with me psychologically, so I had to dredge it up.

 

[As I was saying]

One thing I really enjoy about God is that he is a Father and like all good fathers they don't treat every child the same.

When you are a babe in Christ there is less expectation of you than when you are mature in Christ. I didn't expect my six month old daughter to do the washing up but in her teens she did it without thinking.

What I have found is what the scripture says "If you seek me you will find me..." It doesn't say "If you try and prove I don't exist you will find out that I do..."

It is no use saying "I can't do this until you prove to me I can" as faith is the EVIDENCE of things NOT seen, not evidence of things seen. That is where the atheist slips up. He/she wants everything on a plate before they accept the reality of God.

One thing I ask my congregation is "How do you know you can walk on the water?" The answer of course is "When you step out of the boat." You can't walk on the water by sitting on your backside in the boat. Walking on the water requires faith as the only evidence you have that it can be done is what you don't see.

When you step out of the boat you will find out if you can walk on the water. If you don't, who cares, because the end result might be the exact opposite.

No, the problem we have both atheist and christian is that we have a tendency to say, "I want to know all about you God but I want it my way." When you set down terms and conditions for God, you remove the element of faith so you shoot yourself in the foot as the scripture says "without faith it is IMPOSSIBLE to please God."

 

[MishSill]

One thing I really enjoy about God is that he is a Father and like all good fathers they don't treat every child the same.

When you are a babe in Christ there is less expectation of you than when you are mature in Christ. I didn't expect my six month old daughter to do the washing up but in her teens she did it without thinking.

What I have found is what the scripture says "If you seek me you will find me..." It doesn't say "If you try and prove I don't exist you will find out that I do..."

It is no use saying "I can't do this until you prove to me I can" as faith is the EVIDENCE of things NOT seen, not evidence of things seen. That is where the atheist slips up. He/she wants everything on a plate before they accept the reality of God.

One thing I ask my congregation is "How do you know you can walk on the water?" The answer of course is "When you step out of the boat." You can't walk on the water by sitting on your backside in the boat. Walking on the water requires faith as the only evidence you have that it can be done is what you don't see.

When you step out of the boat you will find out if you can walk on the water. If you don't, who cares, because the end result might be the exact opposite.

No, the problem we have both atheist and christian is that we have a tendency to say, "I want to know all about you God but I want it my way." When you set down terms and conditions for God, you remove the element of faith so you shoot yourself in the foot as the scripture says "without faith it is IMPOSSIBLE to please God."

Hi Cloudy,

I give this post a big thumbs up.

How do you feel reading it... a bit scared to get out of the boat and walk on water towards Jesus?

Please don't be afraid to share with us because anything you do share, we are praying to God for you.

I did the same thing you did. I was an occultist before I became a Christian. I was brought up in a mainstream traditional church where God was "all the way up there" and you had to pray to saints to get to Him. God's presence was never tangible but the other spiritual stuff was. I really got completely sucked in by the dark side.

The first time I felt God's presence upon me was when I was at a very low point in my life. I stopped questioning why God was so far away from me and for the first time I simply sought out His love.

Blessings
Mish

Blessings
Mish

 

[cloudyday2]

Hi Cloudy,

I give this post a big thumbs up.

How do you feel reading it... a bit scared to get out of the boat and walk on water towards Jesus?

Please don't be afraid to share with us because anything you do share, we are praying to God for you.

I did the same thing you did. I was an occultist before I became a Christian. I was brought up in a mainstream traditional church where God was "all the way up there" and you had to pray to saints to get to Him. God's presence was never tangible but the other spiritual stuff was. I really got completely sucked in by the dark side.

The first time I felt God's presence upon me was when I was at a very low point in my life. I stopped questioning why God was so far away from me and for the first time I simply sought out His love.

Thanks, Mish. My problem is that I was definitely having psychosis several years ago. When I described some of the experiences to therapists, they found it hard to believe that I had recovered without anti-psychotics, psychiatric help, or even a realization that I was psychotic. I have read that people who can recover from psychosis without medication have less chance of repeats which is comforting.

So on the question of stepping out of the boat:

- I'm a little concerned about aggravating my psychological state. Up until the fall of last year, reading certain things or odd coincidences would cause paranoid worries that were stressful. Just a year ago, I became stressed-out because my insurance agent quoted the bible in his email. That should have been innocuous enough, but I developed a delusional thought that God was scolding me and this guy was a prophet. I knew it was absurd, but the thought just would not go away. I almost didn't get the insurance policy renewed, because I couldn't deal with that agent as a result. I had my breakdown in 2009. The hallucinations ended after a year or two, but the delusional worries would keep popping-up every month or so until last fall.

- I suspect there may be genuine spiritual experiences, but due to my psychological instability, I must discount everything I have experienced. There definitely seems to be some anecdotal evidence that deceased loved ones can visit the living. My mother told me an anecdote yesterday in that vein.

- I have a tendency towards scrupulosity (religious OCD), so I don't want to stir that up either.

- If I was to become religious, it would probably be as a Buddist or Hindu. Gnostic Christianity also has some appeal. Interestingly, I don't have very much interest in religion now that I recovered from the psychosis completely. I'm very happy to be normal and stable again.

EDIT: Other religions that interest me are Taoism and Animism.

 

[BabylonWeary]

(4) Is there really anything that Christians and atheists can discuss about religion? Most atheists know all about Christianity already. Most Christians know all about atheism already. Christians can preach the same things that the atheists have heard and rejected. Atheists can ask Christians for convincing evidence that Christians can't supply.

There's a movie called "Erik the Viking", you might like it.

 

[cloudyday2]

There's a movie called "Erik the Viking", you might like it.

Thanks for the tip.

 

[MishSill]

Thanks, Mish. My problem is that I was definitely having psychosis several years ago. When I described some of the experiences to therapists, they found it hard to believe that I had recovered without anti-psychotics, psychiatric help, or even a realization that I was psychotic. I have read that people who can recover from psychosis without medication have less chance of repeats which is comforting.

So on the question of stepping out of the boat:

- I'm a little concerned about aggravating my psychological state. Up until the fall of last year, reading certain things or odd coincidences would cause paranoid worries that were stressful. Just a year ago, I became stressed-out because my insurance agent quoted the bible in his email. That should have been innocuous enough, but I developed a delusional thought that God was scolding me and this guy was a prophet. I knew it was absurd, but the thought just would not go away. I almost didn't get the insurance policy renewed, because I couldn't deal with that agent as a result. I had my breakdown in 2009. The hallucinations ended after a year or two, but the delusional worries would keep popping-up every month or so until last fall.

- I suspect there may be genuine spiritual experiences, but due to my psychological instability, I must discount everything I have experienced. There definitely seems to be some anecdotal evidence that deceased loved ones can visit the living. My mother told me an anecdote yesterday in that vein.

- I have a tendency towards scrupulosity (religious OCD), so I don't want to stir that up either.

- If I was to become religious, it would probably be as a Buddist or Hindu. Gnostic Christianity also has some appeal. Interestingly, I don't have very much interest in religion now that I recovered from the psychosis completely. I'm very happy to be normal and stable again.

EDIT: Other religions that interest me are Taoism and Animism.

Cloudy,

God gives you peace.

The devil aggravates.

No the deceased lovedones cannot speak to you but the devil can imitate them.

The devil has one mission in life and that is to keep you away from God.

God will not give you psychosis but the devil will jump up and down because he's about to lose you to Him. The moment you receive Jesus into your life, its all over for the devil. The devil can only play games with you while you choose to straddle the fence. That's why you've been under attack.

Let me know what area you are in and I'll see if I can arrange for someone to get in contact with you...xo

 

[cloudyday2]

Cloudy,

God gives you peace.

The devil aggravates.

No the deceased lovedones cannot speak to you but the devil can imitate them.

The devil has one mission in life and that is to keep you away from God.

God will not give you psychosis but the devil will jump up and down because he's about to lose you to Him. The moment you receive Jesus into your life, its all over for the devil. The devil can only play games with you while you choose to straddle the fence. That's why you've been under attack.

Let me know what area you are in and I'll see if I can arrange for someone to get in contact with you...xo

Thanks, Mish Actually, I'm just fine now, so there's nothing to be concerned about. My hallucinations only lasted a couple of weeks and that was 6 years ago. There were monthly hallucinations for the next year tapering gradually to none. I was a Christian during those 2 years. As the hallucinations decreased, I became more skeptical of Christianity. Then I learned about psychosis. After several years, I think I'm back to normal now. It's all ancient history.

 

[oi_antz]

Addressing OP about this:

The devil has one mission in life and that is to keep you away from God.

I think he has more of a mission than just that. I was discussing Satan's motives this morning, and it appears that the overall story of the bible is about his desire to control the world. Those humans who use their physical representation (life) against him are chastised while those who comply with and support his will receive his blessing. This is that normal method of control that we are all familiar with: reward and punishment.

God will not give you psychosis but the devil will jump up and down because he's about to lose you to Him. The moment you receive Jesus into your life, its all over for the devil. The devil can only play games with you while you choose to straddle the fence. That's why you've been under attack.

I think the phrase "all over for the devil" is an exaggeration, but certainly he knows that once you begin representing the truth against him, you will be a nuisance. So it is easier instead to bring down your faith. I also don't think your battle against him stops when you decide to give loyalty to Jesus, but only at the grave. He does this in all manner of different ways too. I am certain that the psychosis you have described could be explained this way. I seriously expect that Satan who has been observing and operating on humans for thousands of years will understand what's going on in your head better than you do.

 

[cloudyday2]

Addressing OP about this:

I think he has more of a mission than just that. I was discussing Satan's motives this morning, and it appears that the overall story of the bible is about his desire to control the world. Those humans who use their physical representation (life) against him are chastised while those who comply with and support his will receive his blessing. This is that normal method of control that we are all familiar with: reward and punishment.

I think the phrase "all over for the devil" is an exaggeration, but certainly he knows that once you begin representing the truth against him, you will be a nuisance. So it is easier instead to bring down your faith. I also don't think your battle against him stops when you decide to give loyalty to Jesus, but only at the grave. He does this in all manner of different ways too. I am certain that the psychosis you have described could be explained this way. I seriously expect that Satan who has been observing and operating on humans for thousands of years will understand what's going on in your head better than you do.

As an atheist, it's hard for me to be very interested in the devil's alleged strategies. One of the problems with Christianity (and other religions) is that people with mental illness often do not get the treatment they need, because their illness is often misdiagnosed and treated through prayer, deliverance ministries, etc. Even common mental illnesses like depression are sometimes not treated, because Christians tend to believe the devil is responsible for every misfortune.

On the other hand, some people with psychosis are comforted by their Christian beliefs. Trusting that "it is all over for the devil" reduces their fear, and this calm reduces psychosis. The ancient Egyptians had sleep temples where mental illnesses were treated using religious practices ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sleep_temple ). Sometimes religion helps people too.

 

[oi_antz]

As an atheist, it's hard for me to be very interested in the devil's alleged strategies.

You are allowed to believe that, sure. (Notice when I say this though, I consciously do not use the phrase "you have that right").

One of the problems with Christianity (and other religions) is that people with mental illness often do not get the treatment they need, because their illness is often misdiagnosed and treated through prayer, deliverance ministries, etc. Even common mental illnesses like depression are sometimes not treated, because Christians tend to believe the devil is responsible for every misfortune.

Can you give me examples of this? Can you please identify the people who believe they are more qualified to treat the person than the doctors?

On the other hand, some people with psychosis are comforted by their Christian beliefs. Trusting that "it is all over for the devil" reduces their fear, and this calm reduces psychosis. The ancient Egyptians had sleep temples where mental illnesses were treated using religious practices ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sleep_temple ). Sometimes religion helps people too.

Sure religion helps some people. I was not saying this though to give you advice, but to show you that I understand the story in such way that I saw those statements by the former poster were a bit misleading.

 

[cloudyday2]

Can you give me examples of this? Can you please identify the people who believe they are more qualified to treat the person than the doctors?

Here are a couple of links:
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/epiphenom/2010/08/why-psychotic-patients-with-religious.html
http://www.theguardian.com/society/2014/dec/22/evangelical-christian-church-mental-illness

I don't know if there are any official studies, because most medical institutions are probably reluctant to appear to be critical of religion.

In my own case, I did not receive any medication or treatment, because it was understood to be spiritual oppression or whatever. I don't like taking medicine, but the mental illness caused me to recklessly give away almost all of my retirement savings because I intended to live in poverty (along with many other stupid behaviors). Whose fault is that? I think there were people in my church (including the priest) who knew that I needed to get medical help, but they were part of a religious system that inhibited them from speaking up. I don't blame anybody. It was just unfortunate that I didn't know more about psychology before it happened.

 

[cloudyday2]

BTW, I found this paper designed to educate churches about the various mental illnesses. The paper's explanation of "negative symptoms" and "positive symptoms" of psychosis was so much more clear than anything else I have found. I thought I should link the article just in case somebody might find it interesting.
http://www.lifewayresearch.com/file...ess-and-Christian-Faith-Research-Report-1.pdf

 

[oi_antz]

Great resources, thank you! Clearly two problems appear here, and it boils down to one: knowledge.

On one hand we can see those who are very misinformed, who do not really understand what demonic influence is, yet they believe what they think they know about it. In the first article this was mentioned that all mental illness was put down to unrepented sin or bad theology. Straight away to me, I see this as the work of a false teacher, and if Jesus is taken to be the truth, we know who gives birth to lies.

The other aspect is authority. I have seen preachers who get up on their stage and they get people to come up on the stage and they put on quite a show. They get people to fall over and convulse on the ground, and I remember this one who was tormenting these people in their hypnotised state saying "fire!", "fire!" And these people were quivering in fetal position "no!". I just need to say it, these people do not know Jesus Christ at all. Jesus didn't go around putting on a show and making a spectacle out of demon possessed people, remember what He did? "Be quiet! Come out of him". "What is your name? Come out of him". It's not a business to go playing around with.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts+19:15&version=NLT

At least if the drugs are helping to mitigate the impact of the mental problems, that is a good thing. But, it doesn't work for everyone and it is not a cure by itself. The real cure is knowledge. That is why counselling can be effective, and why people such as yourself are able to learn a more accurate view of reality. Remember being scared of shadows as a kid? Remember what stopped it? Knowledge that reality was not what you imagined it to be. This is all said art delusions, not hallucinations or anything else. I don't know about hallucinations, but I think a lot about why people are all so delusional.