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Atheism. What are your thoughts?

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AtheistAlan

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(Kennedy)

The framework set forth by Ninian Smart, commonly known as the Seven Dimensions of Religion, is widely accepted by anthropologists and researchers of religion as broadly covering the various aspects of religion, without focusing on things unique to specific religions.

The seven dimensions proposed by Smart are narrative, experiential, social, ethical, doctrinal, ritual and material. Not every religion has every dimension, nor are they all equally important within an individual religion. Smart even argues that the “secularisation” of western society is actually a shift of focus from the doctrinal and ritual to the experiential.
Atheism: A religion

Please give me time to refute the quoted text. It is a rather large wall of text that I have to research, deconstruct, and analyze. It will take time to formulate a response. I do apologize in advance, I feel that the resulting post will be extremely long.

-Atheist Alan
 
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drjean

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Please give me time to refute the quoted text. It is a rather large wall of text that I have to research, deconstruct, and analyze. It will take time to formulate a response. I do apologize in advance, I feel that the resulting post will be extremely long.

-Atheist Alan

Perhaps your issues are not really God vs no God, but an inability to believe that you actually can believe in something, and can be called by standard titles or labels? There is nothing taken away from atheism by denoting it as a "religion" or a "faith". It's only that the general--albeit ignorant--teachings are that atheism is some type of mind formulation that is outside the concepts of ordinary man. It is not. It does fall within certain parameters that we happen use terms to define (them) such as "religion". It doesn't diminish what you do or don't believe in the least.

I daresay that what Newberg or Smart wrote on this topic is much more indepth and literate. The wall of text was offered as it put things at the common reading level for man.
 
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AtheistAlan

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Are you, at least, open to the possibilities of miracles?

That depends on your definition of the word miracles. As we can observe in this very thread, different definitions of the same word can be vastly different things.

For instance, if it is that supernatural, or non-natural things are can happen, then I submit: why do amputees never regenerate their limbs? Are they not worthy of supernatural events or miracles?

-Atheist Alan
 
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drjean

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It is not too much information. It will just take time to formulate a response. Please bear with me.

-Atheist Alan
\


Do please take your time. I would hope that you will allow it to simmer and percolate a bit... and realize there's no reason to fear the definition? TTYL :hug:
 
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Asvin

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That depends on your definition of the word miracles. As we can observe in this very thread, different definitions of the same word can be vastly different things.

For instance, if it is that supernatural, or non-natural things are can happen, then I submit: why do amputees never regenerate their limbs? Are they not worthy of supernatural events or miracles?

-Atheist Alan

Yes, I forgot to define the word "miracles," but I will go with your definition. Do you want all or some of the amputees to be miraculously healed?
 
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AtheistAlan

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Do please take your time. I would hope that you will allow it to simmer and percolate a bit... and realize there's no reason to fear the definition? TTYL :hug:

Simmer it will. The theme, if you will, of this particular debate is by no means a new argument on the stage of atheistic debate.

I do not fear a definition. I will assert, with my post to come, that your definition is stretching and/or redefining the definition among other things. I observe there are similarities, but I will attempt to refute each point if I am able. It will likely take several days to craft. I am a slow researcher, and I have a busy schedule for the upcoming first half of the week. It will be on the forefront of my thoughts, simmering.

I would just like to say thank you drjean; I appreciate this stimulating conversation. It requires me to think and make very informed arguments. I do enjoy things that make me think!

-Atheist Alan
 
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AtheistAlan

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Yes, I forgot to define the word "miracles," but I will go with your definition. Do you want all or some of the amputees to be miraculously healed?

I wish all amputees were able to regenerate missing appendages. However that isn't a very plausible outcome however much I desire it. One day scientific advancement may unlock a way to have our bodies regenerate itself on level with today's medical care.

I would like to see an example of one amputee that, for whatever reason, lost an arm or a leg, and was later able to regenerate said appendage without medical or scientific assistance. I would very much like to see such an example.

-Atheist Alan
 
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Redac

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I'm sure Alan has a much longer and more detailed response than I do, but in the meantime I'll go ahead and address parts of drjean's information.

(Kennedy)
They have their own worldview. Materialism (the view that the material world is all there is) is the lens through which atheists view the world. Far from being the open-minded, follow-the-evidence-wherever thinkers they claim to be, they interpret all data ONLY within the very narrow worldview of materialism. They are like a guy wearing dark sunglasses who chides all others for thinking the sun is out.
Since when is materialism a prerequisite for atheism? I can point you to places full of non-theists that believe in magick and spirits and all sorts of things like that. Atheism is lack of belief in a deity; it does not necessarily preclude other supernatural occurrences.

They have their own orthodoxy. Orthodoxy is a set of beliefs acceptable to a faith community. Just as there are orthodox Christian beliefs, there is an atheist orthodoxy as well. In brief, it is that EVERYTHING can be explained as the product of unintentional, undirected, purposeless evolution. No truth claim is acceptable if it cannot be subjected to scientific scrutiny.
Atheism does not equal evolution, nor does it equal science. This is like saying because most NBA players are black, being black is a part of the professional basketball "orthodoxy".

They have their own brand of apostasy. Apostasy is to abandon one’s former religious faith. Antony Flew was for many years one of the world’s most prominent atheists. And then he did the unthinkable: he changed his mind. You can imagine the response of the “open-minded, tolerant” New Atheist movement. Flew was vilified. Richard Dawkins accused Flew of “tergiversation.” It’s a fancy word for apostasy. By their own admission, then, Flew abandoned their “faith.”
In this context, this is the definition of tergiversation:
: desertion of a cause, position, party, or faith
If one wants to go ahead and focus on the "faith" part and define apostasy that loosely, fine. If you use that as part of your definition of "religion", however, you're severely diluting the term such that any particular political stance or cause is a "religion" as well.

They have their own prophets: Nietzsche, Russell, Feuerbach, Lenin, Marx.
Because atheists must also be socialists? A patently ridiculous claim, to be sure.

They have their own messiah: He is, of course, Charles Darwin. Darwin – in their view – drove the definitive stake through the heart of theism by providing a comprehensive explanation of life that never needs God as a cause or explanation. Daniel Dennett has even written a book seeking to define religious faith itself as merely an evolutionary development.
Atheists existed before Darwin was even born. Evolution =/= atheism.

They have their own preachers and evangelists. And boy, are they “evangelistic.” Dawkins, Dennett, Harris, and Hitchens (Speaking of which, our prayers goes out to Christopher Hitchens in hopes of a speedy recovery for his cancer, we need more time with him Lord) are NOT out to ask that atheism be given respect. They are seeking converts. They are preaching a “gospel” calling for the end of theism.
Openly challenging theism and asking people to consider things from a different viewpoint is hardly evangelism, but alright, however you wanna define it.

They have faith. That’s right, faith.
You don't say.


They would have you believe the opposite. Their writings ridicule faith, condemn faith. Harris’s book is called The End of Faith. But theirs is a faith-based enterprise.
orly.jpg


The existence of God cannot be proven or disproven. To deny it takes faith.
If I look at the evidence available for the existence of God (or lack thereof, perhaps), and I remain unconvinced of God's existence, where is the faith there?

Evolution has no explanation for why our universe is orderly, predictable, measurable. In fact (atheistic) evolutionary theory has no rational explanation for why there is such a thing as rational explanation.
Evolution is change in allele frequency over time. It accounts for the biological diversity we see today and how species have changed. That's it. I really wish people would stop trying to make evolution claim more than it does.

There is no accounting for the things they hope you won’t ask: Why do we have self-awareness? What makes us conscious?
Hardly. It does not take faith to know that we are self-aware, and the simple answer to those questions is that our brains are sufficiently complex to allow it. Beyond that, questions of "why" in this sense are philosophical in nature, not scientific.

From what source is there a universal sense of right and wrong?
Morality is far from universal among human beings.
 
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Buy Bologna

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On the whole 'Atheism is a religion' thing going on in this thread...

It's silly to think atheism it is a religion.

It's not a belief. It's a lack of belief.

Not believing in Zues. Baal or the egyptian god Ra is NOT considered a religion. Just like not believing in the god of the bible isn't a religion. But because Atheist don't believe in the same god you do...it doesn't make it a religion.

But hey, if it is a religion...let's make it official. That way Dawkins teachings and foundations and other atheistic buildings and resources are tax free!
 
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Asvin

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I wish all amputees were able to regenerate missing appendages. However that isn't a very plausible outcome however much I desire it. One day scientific advancement may unlock a way to have our bodies regenerate itself on level with today's medical care.

I would like to see an example of one amputee that, for whatever reason, lost an arm or a leg, and was later able to regenerate said appendage without medical or scientific assistance. I would very much like to see such an example.

-Atheist Alan

Say, for the sake of argument, God regenerated all missing appendages of all the amputees living on planet earth in a couple of hours. What will be your response? Will such an action benefit you?
 
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Asvin

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On the whole 'Atheism is a religion' thing going on in this thread...

It's silly to think atheism it is a religion.

It's not a belief. It's a lack of belief.

Not believing in Zues. Baal or the egyptian god Ra is NOT considered a religion. Just like not believing in the god of the bible isn't a religion. But because Atheist don't believe in the same god you do...it doesn't make it a religion.

But hey, if it is a religion...let's make it official. That way Dawkins teachings and foundations and other atheistic buildings and resources are tax free!

Atheism is not just refraining from belief in God! It requires one to hold the belief that there is no God! Take a look at the following definitions:

Atheism and Agnosticism (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)
Atheism | Define Atheism at Dictionary.com
 
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AtheistAlan

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Say, for the sake of argument, God regenerated all missing appendages of all the amputees living on planet earth in a couple of hours. What will be your response? Will such an action benefit you?

If all amputees on Earth were healed, likewise if all sickness was gone or some other global greater change in a significantly small amount of time without scientific or medical assistance, I would say through proof of observation that miracles exist.

For the sake of argument, if God is proven to behind such an act, I would of course both both believe in miracles and God.

-Atheist Alan
 
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Redac

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SonOfTheWest

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On the whole 'Atheism is a religion' thing going on in this thread...

It's silly to think atheism it is a religion.

It's not a belief. It's a lack of belief.

Not believing in Zues. Baal or the egyptian god Ra is NOT considered a religion. Just like not believing in the god of the bible isn't a religion. But because Atheist don't believe in the same god you do...it doesn't make it a religion.

But hey, if it is a religion...let's make it official. That way Dawkins teachings and foundations and other atheistic buildings and resources are tax free!

Piffle. Next thing I'll be told that NOT watching footballers on the pitch is my favorite sport. Though it does give me more time to get some yard work done I admit.
 
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Asvin

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If all amputees on Earth were healed, likewise if all sickness was gone or some other global greater change in a significantly small amount of time without scientific or medical assistance, I would say through proof of observation that miracles exist.

For the sake of argument, if God is proven to behind such an act, I would of course both both believe in miracles and God.

-Atheist Alan

Let's just stick with amputees.. What benefits do YOU have if all amputees regenerated their limbs? Also, once you accept that there is a God, what characteristics would you ascribe, to that God?
 
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KCfromNC

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Childs makes the case:

Atheism is a religion.

Childs' case breaks down when you consider that Buddhist atheists exist, and they follow none of the supposed tenets of the "religion" of atheism laid out in your quote. As do radical-free market atheists, as do spiritual atheists as do many other atheists of all stripes that don't fit into the mold some random person thinks he's figured out. The only think all atheists have in common is a lack of belief in gods, which is no more a religious world view than a lack of belief in unicorns.

As nice as it would be to be able to tell other people what they believe and then attack that straw man, life is more complex than black and white.
 
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AtheistAlan

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Let's just stick with amputees.. What benefits do YOU have if all amputees regenerated their limbs? Also, once you accept that there is a God, what characteristics would you ascribe, to that God?

What benefits do I have by all the amputees being healed? I gain nothing really, other than that I would be glad that all such people were healed.

What characteristics would I ascribe to? I would ascribe to a God that possibly exists. I would still put no value in any holy text, nor any "prophet" or organized religion. It is a fantastic leap to go from "There is a God", and "These are the exact qualities of such a God".

I hope I have answered your question in a desirable manner.

-Atheist Alan
 
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