Atheism, Rival Conception of God.

[Cory007]

A quote from C.S. Lewis that should be pondered.

Consequently atheism turns out to be too simple. If the whole universe has no meaning, we should never have found out that it has no meaning: just as, if there was no light in the universe and therefore no creatures with eyes, we should never know it was dark. Dark would be a word without meaning.

 

[The Nihilist]

Wrong. Meaning is a human construct and not an object, just like justice. There's no absolute meaning, but there's definitely meaning. A good life is a good life either way. Mystery solved, case closed.

 

[Eudaimonist]

If the whole universe has no meaning, we should never have found out that it has no meaning: just as, if there was no light in the universe and therefore no creatures with eyes, we should never know it was dark. Dark would be a word without meaning.

I don't have the full context for your C.S. Lewis quote, but this strikes me as both an equivocation on the word "meaning", and the fallacy of composition.

The equivocation is that when an atheist says that the universe has no meaning, he means that it has no purpose, not that the word or concept "universe" is meaningless.

Also, the property of a part need not be shared by the whole. Whether Lewis meant purpose or concept, human beings can have purpose and mean things by their words even though the universe as a whole cannot. Consider: the individual cells in my body can divide into new cells, but I cannot divide into two persons.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[David Gould]

If it is a matter of comparison being required for the word 'meaning' to have any meaning, words have meanings and universes do not, so we have a comparison.

As such, I am having a little trouble with what Lewis is trying to say here.

 

[Tynan]

A quote from C.S. Lewis that should be pondered.

Consequently atheism turns out to be too simple. If the whole universe has no meaning, we should never have found out that it has no meaning:

Why ? If the universe has no meaning, is without a purpose or goals of itself, why should we never have found this out ?

just as, if there was no light in the universe and therefore no creatures with eyes, we should never know it was dark.

If there was no froius in the universe and therefore no way of detecting froius, we would never know the universe was froiusless.

Nonsense to support the supernatural is still nonsense.

This C.S Lewis was a poor thinker.

 

[Blackguard_]

This C.S Lewis was a poor thinker.

Hey, The Screwtape Letters were good, but yeah, he's a poor apologist.

 

[MemeBuster]

Interesting Thread.

 

[quatona]

Consequently atheism turns out to be too simple. If the whole universe has no meaning,

He has lost me already here. He wants to make a statement about atheism, but then immediately switches to discussing the view that the whole universe has no meaning.

 

[Pesto]

There are many things that we can conceive of that don't exist, such as perpetual motion machines and faries. A "meaning" to the universe is just one more such concept.

 

[Species8472]

A quote from C.S. Lewis that should be pondered.

Everything that is possible to be imagined is an image of Truth. Through concept and experience do we imagine the world. To say the world is dark is just plain ignorance though.
It's hard to see an ocean when we are just staring at the stream or river of life. Somewhere out there the world has meaning; but I believe if we are to live life to it's fullest then we must gather truth from poetic tales such as Jesus Christ. To have a shepherd into the truth is always a good thing. People just neglect to see that.
If all things are possible to be imagined then why not imagine what is good and other-worldly; and are not these things evident in Jesus Christ?
We are all aware that we walk through the doors of perception from thought to thought. One must ask ones' self, What is it that I want out of life?
Most of us fall to simplicity, however, simplicity is complacency to fact and truth--that evil does in fact exist; whether it be in deity form or just the essence of...
One must realize that the simple life is not necessarily the good life--that in fact, complexity is necessary for us to remain within the truth; but not to be complacent in the truth either; for truth is not simple. It is a narrow and straight way of life, however, one must not become prudent even in ones own wisdom--to suggest that a simple falling away from truth can invigorate life at times of need.
In other words, step out of your perceptual loop at times because the man that never alters his opinions breeds pestilence in the mind like a fog of forgetfulness; however, to become forgetful as a child becomes forgetful--those are the blossoms of eternal life.
Whether there is a god or not--a mere holy yea or nea is necessary to tackle even the biggest spiritual dragons that we encounter in this world of ours. Let not your spirit fall from the truth and your answer will be a yea, in consideration of hope. Even an atheist needs hope if he is to endure.

 

[The Nihilist]

Everything that is possible to be imagined is an image of Truth. Through concept and experience do we imagine the world. To say the world is dark is just plain ignorance though.
It's hard to see an ocean when we are just staring at the stream or river of life. Somewhere out there the world has meaning; but I believe if we are to live life to it's fullest then we must gather truth from poetic tales such as Jesus Christ. To have a shepherd into the truth is always a good thing. People just neglect to see that.
If all things are possible to be imagined then why not imagine what is good and other-worldly; and are not these things evident in Jesus Christ?
We are all aware that we walk through the doors of perception from thought to thought. One must ask ones' self, What is it that I want out of life?
Most of us fall to simplicity, however, simplicity is complacency to fact and truth--that evil does in fact exist; whether it be in deity form or just the essence of...
One must realize that the simple life is not necessarily the good life--that in fact, complexity is necessary for us to remain within the truth; but not to be complacent in the truth either; for truth is not simple. It is a narrow and straight way of life, however, one must not become prudent even in ones own wisdom--to suggest that a simple falling away from truth can invigorate life at times of need.
In other words, step out of your perceptual loop at times because the man that never alters his opinions breeds pestilence in the mind like a fog of forgetfulness; however, to become forgetful as a child becomes forgetful--those are the blossoms of eternal life.
Whether there is a god or not--a mere holy yea or nea is necessary to tackle even the biggest spiritual dragons that we encounter in this world of ours. Let not your spirit fall from the truth and your answer will be a yea, in consideration of hope. Even an atheist needs hope if he is to endure.

I have no idea what you're talking about or how it relates to the OP.
What I do know, though, is that not everyone needs to beleive in fairy tales to have hope for the future. You know, I'm not even sure you need hope if you're happy with the way things are right now. What good is hope for someone who is already prosperous?

 

[DailyBlessings]

Consider: the individual cells in my body can divide into new cells, but I cannot divide into two persons.

Forgive my denseness, but what exactly do you mean by this?

 

[Species8472]

I have no idea what you're talking about or how it relates to the OP.
What I do know, though, is that not everyone needs to beleive in fairy tales to have hope for the future. You know, I'm not even sure you need hope if you're happy with the way things are right now. What good is hope for someone who is already prosperous?

know what is before your face and what is hidden from you shall be made manifest. a little trick of philosophy, my recovering philosopher. what is good in hope for someone who is already prosperous is that so they may have hope that they can maintain their prosperity. You always need hope even when you are happy. In hope, you have the happiness that even though you may be prosperous at the moment; hope, is necessary that you can confide in her so that your prosperity continues. What if you lose? Where is your hope then?
If you believe that your prosperity can continue then you are likened to a fool; and even the fool meets death. And where is your prosperity there?
Always be ready to speak your mind, and a base man will avoid you.
--william blake, proverbs of hell

 

[Foolish_Fool]

Hey, The Screwtape Letters were good, but yeah, he's a poor apologist.

He writes some interesting things. Flawed, but interesting.

 

[phsyxx]

Forgive my denseness, but what exactly do you mean by this?

I believe, and I may not be correct in this, is that MARK is demonstrating that although it could be said that cells divide purposelessly, but if that were so, why then do they not divide uncontrollably and form another organism entirely?

 

[Eudaimonist]

Forgive my denseness, but what exactly do you mean by this?

I'm referring to the fallacy of composition.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[The Nihilist]

know what is before your face and what is hidden from you shall be made manifest. a little trick of philosophy, my recovering philosopher. what is good in hope for someone who is already prosperous is that so they may have hope that they can maintain their prosperity. You always need hope even when you are happy. In hope, you have the happiness that even though you may be prosperous at the moment; hope, is necessary that you can confide in her so that your prosperity continues. What if you lose? Where is your hope then?
If you believe that your prosperity can continue then you are likened to a fool; and even the fool meets death. And where is your prosperity there?
Always be ready to speak your mind, and a base man will avoid you.
--william blake, proverbs of hell

I have no idea what you're talking about for about half of this, so I'm going to talk about the other half. A properous man without worries requires no hope. If he does not believe in life after death and if he has reconciled with his inevitable death, then hope is of no use to him. Even if he has worries, he does not require hope, especially if by hope we mean the feeling that what is wanted can be attained or that things will turn out for the best. What is required instead if a man has worries is what he needs to overcome what he fears. Hope is only useful when there is no better way to attain what is sought. This is useless to a clever man with resources, or a more clever man without them. Hope is for the powerless.

 

[Kahalachan]

Yes, atheism is simple cause we choose not to violate Occam's razor.

Science and truth is simple. Art and expression is complex. Both are good as long as something that belongs to one isn't mismatched and sent to the other.

Religion and God is good as a form of art and expression, and lets us see the complexity of the human imagination or expression of subjective truth.

 

[Brimshack]

Odd that the Lewis quote from the OP would proport to be commentary on atheism while discussing nothing whatsoever to do with atheism.

 

[Sojourner<><]

A quote from C.S. Lewis that should be pondered.

Nice quote

Some thoughts on meaning...

Consider happening upon two different objects while taking a walk through the woods: A hammer and a hammer shaped branch that has apparently fallen from a tree.

Does the hammer have purpose? Sure it does. It was created for a reason. Does the branch have purpose? Well, it can be used for the same purpose as the hammer, but it was not created in the same sense that the hammer was so it can't have purpose in the same sense. What is the determinate factor? Whether or not the object was created.

The atheist cannot allow himself to see purpose in the universe unless he is willing to ponder the possibility of the existence of a creator.