Atheism and nihilism

Kylie · Aug 24, 2020

Confused-by-christianity said:
We are assuming here that someone had the faith of a mustard seed to begin with. Right?

Okay, then we can conclude that if someone prays that the mountain will move and the mountain doesn't move, then they don't have faith?

BTW - I'm not attacking you or your method. I just like to question things - a lot. And dig.

I get the feeling that you don't do this in your everyday life. If you hear three knocks at the door, do you assume there's someone standing there wishing to get your attention and you go to see who it is? Or do you figure that it could be the wind that has moved a tree and caused a branch to fling three pine cones which have hit your door, and that's what the knocking was?

Confused-by-christianity · Aug 24, 2020

Kylie said:
Well, I'm really getting that feeling...

And if others reported the same thing? If there were videos of this event happening? If other people confirmed that they saw the same thing you saw?

And if surveyors confirmed that the mountain really did move?

And given that we currently have no technology at all that could move a mountain like that, I think it's safe to assume that it wasn't some scientific phenomenon at work. Even if we DID have that kind of technology, why would it be used to make a prayer from you happen?

Why not?

If I press a button and a light flashes, and then I press the button again and a light flashes, and every single time I press the button a light flashes and the light never flashes if I do not press the button, it's a very reasonable conclusion that pressing the button causes the light to flash, right?

And it's this sort of thing that has lead me to conclude that you think atheists are just out to deny God by any means necessary.

It's your right to conclude as you see fit - who am I to argue it. But, for all it's worth, I don't think that.

Confused-by-christianity · Aug 24, 2020

Kylie said:
Okay, then we can conclude that if someone prays that the mountain will move and the mountain doesn't move, then they don't have faith?

Not right away. We should brainstorm possibilities as to why it didn't happen, write a theory as to what is going on and test our theory. We should be aware that our theory can pass the test billions of times and still be incorrect.
Possibilities as to why we didn't find what we expected...
1) We misunderstood Jesus's words?
(What is "faith of a mustard seed" anyway? What is "faith"?? What did Jesus mean by "faith"? Is the english translation correct?)
2) We misunderstood the context?
3) Jesus was wrong?
4) The witness recording Jesus was lying?
5) The person didn't have the "faith of a mustard seed"?

Kylie · Aug 24, 2020

Confused-by-christianity said:
It's your right to conclude as you see fit - who am I to argue it. But, for all it's worth, I don't think that.

You only responded to the very last thing I wrote and ignored the rest. Can I take it that you agree with the other stuff I said then?

Confused-by-christianity · Aug 24, 2020

Kylie said:
You only responded to the very last thing I wrote and ignored the rest. Can I take it that you agree with the other stuff I said then?

No - I'm just trying to tackle one part of the conversation at a time. I'll respond to the bits I missed (but - the chat could get incredibly complex haha)

Confused-by-christianity · Aug 24, 2020

Kylie said:
You only responded to the very last thing I wrote and ignored the rest. Can I take it that you agree with the other stuff I said then?

Looking through your writing - there is actually quite a lot I haven't responded to since our discussion began.

Kylie · Aug 24, 2020

Confused-by-christianity said:
Not right away. We should brainstorm possibilities as to why it didn't happen, write a theory as to what is going on and test our theory. We should be aware that our theory can pass the test billions of times and still be incorrect.
Possibilities as to why we didn't find what we expected...
1) We misunderstood Jesus's words?
(What is "faith of a mustard seed" anyway? What is "faith"?? What did Jesus mean by "faith"? Is the english translation correct?)
2) We misunderstood the context?
3) Jesus was wrong?
4) The witness recording Jesus was lying?
5) The person didn't have the "faith of a mustard seed"?

The trouble is that these things tend to only be brought up to explain why these claims never stand up to scrutiny. Why don't believers ever say that we misunderstood Jesus' words when he said to love our neighbours?

Confused-by-christianity · Aug 24, 2020

Kylie said:
The trouble is that these things tend to only be brought up to explain why these claims never stand up to scrutiny. Why don't believers ever say that we misunderstood Jesus' words when he said to love our neighbours?

I think I understand what you're saying.

Are you basically saying that the bible is cherry picked from. They fit the bible into whatever shape they need to - to prove their point and fit their beliefs?

They never answer the serious hard questions of life with any substance, and, give false meaningless answers to very serious problems?

Example:
When you're at rock bottom they say "... Cheer up. Just have enough faith and you can move mountains..."
When you try to move mountains and you can't "...Oh that! That was a figure of speech...He didn't mean it like that..."

Is that a fair summary of your feelings on the matter?

Leaf473 · Aug 24, 2020

Ken-1122 said:
According to the below link, that which is objective can’t involve interior sensations, that’s subjective. What you have is subjective meaning and purpose to life
https://pediaa.com/difference-between-objective-and-subjective/

Interior sensations are subjective.

I find both positions to be equal. However they should both have a conversation and try to convince the other of their position.

I’m still waiting for you to explain what you mean by objective purpose and objective meaning to life. If it means to have purpose and meaning in your life assigned by someone else, then that is something I do not have; nor want.

That link you provided is very long. Can you point out where in the link it says this?

I’ll admit I haven’t been looking at what other atheists have been posting. Morality a personal choice? What does that mean?

The problem with Wikipedia is anybody can post there; you don’t have to be a lexicographer or anything. Can you find a definition in an actual dictionary that says this?

I don’t agree that to be the definition of Nihilism. Take the word “objective” out, then you might have a point.

That’s different! Belief in your God requires faith, it doesn’t require an act of faith to know I control my thoughts, all that is needed is for me to know what is going on inside my head.

Or perhaps you have a flawed idea of what it means to be atheist; you speak to a few and assume they are all that way, then when you speak to someone that is not, you assume this person is an outlier.

I will respond to the rest later

Yesterday I got a semi-expected call from the authorities on the other side of the country where my mom lives,
so I flew out overnight to help settle her affairs and probably put her in a nursing home.
I hope to resume our discussion in early September.
Peace be with you!

Confused-by-christianity · Aug 24, 2020

Lord Vega said:
Some religious people claim that atheism, which is defined as a lack of belief in deity or deities, is inherently nihilistic. Since atheists come from all nationalities, races, socio-economic backgrounds, and indeed all walks of life, it is reasonable to say that making such a sweeping generalization of all atheists isn’t fair.

However, many atheists spend an inordinate amount of time criticizing religion. Visit any atheist blog on the internet, and there you won’t find one positive article on faith. It seems like everything they post is hostile towards religion. You’ll never see them post a link to a news story about Christians feeding the poor or being good people in general. The same can be said about atheist books: read any book from renowned atheists such as Richard Dawkins or Sam Harris, and all they have to say about religion is bad. In fact, the world's most famous blasphemy advocate Christopher Hitchens even wrote a book called How Religion Poisons Everything.

Since it seems like almost all atheists are hostile towards religion, particularly Christianity, which is an inherently peaceful faith that improves morals and provides eternal salvation for all believers, wouldn’t it make sense to think that atheism is inherently nihilistic? It’s not like you ever see atheists praising religion and talking about how good it is. If that is what they believed, they probably wouldn’t be atheists in the first place.

I've occasionally heard atheists say everything is just meaningless. Although, I don't believe atheists in general are nihilistic.

My experience only here:
More often, I've heard, people who call themselves atheists, express the following beliefs a) Christianity is a poisonous and dangerous thing. b) Christians are either evil or unwitting.

They expressed a type of outrage / moral anger to me about
a) What they perceive Christianity to be.
b) The things that Christians have done.
c) The things Christians continue to do.
d) If God existed, anger at God for letting it all happen.

This is the opposite of thinking everything is meaningless.

It shows a high interest for justice and morality.

Note: The question was about Atheism itself and not atheists. I'm not sure the scene set in the question is true.

Ken-1122 · Aug 24, 2020

Leaf473 said:
Yesterday I got a semi-expected call from the authorities on the other side of the country where my mom lives,
so I flew out overnight to help settle her affairs and probably put her in a nursing home.
I hope to resume our discussion in early September.
Peace be with you!

Okay. I am hoping everything works out well for you and I will be looking forward to your return

FireDragon76 · Aug 24, 2020

Kylie said:
The Bible makes a testable claim - if you have even a small amount of faith, you can pray for a mountain to move and the mountain will move. All I'm saying is to test the claim. If it works as promised, then I'll count it as evidence that the Bible is correct. If it does not work as promised, then I will count it as evidence the Bible is wrong.

And since such prayers obviously do not work, believers have to come up with all sorts of excuses as to why. It's just a figure of speech. It's metaphorical, not literal. Every single time the Bible presents such a testable claim and it fails (which happens quite a lot), believers come up with these excuses. Are you really surprised that I find the Bible unbelievable? Can you imagine if scientists did the same thing? Made amazing claims and then scrambled to come up with excuses to explain why they were wrong. "Oh, I wasn't really wrong, it was just Dave the lab assistant failed to properly calibrate the device!"

It's not "believers" making up that claim, it's the consensus of biblical scholars on the subject, not all of whom are believers. Torturing a text to mean something it simply doesn't is another thing altogether.

Aussie Pete · Aug 24, 2020

FireDragon76 said:
That's actually a more beautiful sentiment than suggesting the only way that a person's life can have meaning, is if billions of other people burn in hell for just happening to not be adherents of the one true religion.

You speak of things that you do not know. People are born in hell. It is separation from God. If they choose to believe Christ, they come out of hell and enter into heaven. Hell and heaven are spiritual states, not material. Christianity is not a religion. It is not just a better way of life, it is a new life that only God, through Christ, can give us. You may not like it, you may wish that there was another way, but that's the way it is. Why don't people accept Christ? The words of Jesus Himself:

"And this is the verdict: The Light has come into the world, but men loved the darkness rather than the Light, because their deeds were evil." (Jesus being the Light)

FireDragon76 · Aug 25, 2020

Aussie Pete said:
You speak of things that you do not know. People are born in hell. It is separation from God. If they choose to believe Christ, they come out of hell and enter into heaven. Hell and heaven are spiritual states, not material. Christianity is not a religion. It is not just a better way of life, it is a new life that only God, through Christ, can give us. You may not like it, you may wish that there was another way, but that's the way it is. Why don't people accept Christ? The words of Jesus Himself:

"And this is the verdict: The Light has come into the world, but men loved the darkness rather than the Light, because their deeds were evil." (Jesus being the Light)

It's insulting to cast aspersions on the character of billions of people like that. Wrapping it in the veneer of religion doesn't make it any less repugnant.

It's precisely that sort of logic that is the reason I am no longer a Christian . I reject mindless tribalism in all its forms.

Ken-1122 · Aug 25, 2020

Aussie Pete said:
. People are born in hell. It is separation from God. If they choose to believe Christ, they come out of hell and enter into heaven. Hell and heaven are spiritual states, not material.

So is it fair to say there is as much misery and suffering in Heaven as there is in Hell, and there is as much joy and happiness in Hell as there is in Heaven?

Aussie Pete · Aug 25, 2020

Ken-1122 said:
So is it fair to say there is as much misery and suffering in Heaven as there is in Hell, and there is as much joy and happiness in Hell as there is in Heaven?

No. I don't how you could infer that from what I said.

Ken-1122 · Aug 25, 2020

Aussie Pete said:
No. I don't how you could infer that from what I said.

Perhaps I misunderstood you. What did you mean when you said that Hell was separation from God, when people trust Christ they leave Hell and enter Heaven; exactly what did you mean by that?

Aussie Pete · Aug 25, 2020

Ken-1122 said:
Perhaps I misunderstood you. What did you mean when you said that Hell was separation from God, when people trust Christ they leave Hell and enter Heaven; exactly what did you mean by that?

Heaven is the place where God dwells. God is Spirit. The material world is His creation. The physical world is not hell. The world system (all politics, religion, commerce, industry, entertainment, education, money, the military and so on) is controlled by Satan. It also is not physical.

People are blind both to God and Satan. Very few realise that Satan runs the world. No one is born knowing God. Everyone is born into the world system. We are like the descendants of slaves. We have not experienced God's realm, so we have no contrast.

When a person gets born again, he is released from the control of the world system. As I've said, God's realm is spiritual, not physical. So the born again Christian looks much the same, and usually his circumstances don't change much. However, inside he is entirely different. He is alive to God. He sees what unbelievers do not see. He hears what unbelievers do not hear. He understands things that seem to be nonsensical to unbelievers. His interests change. Things he loved lose their attraction and things he was indifferent, or even hostile to, become his priorities.

Christians have a new life-source. They have joy, peace, love, wisdom, self control, power and strength that does not derive from themselves. Not all Christians realise what they have and not all live as if it was true. However, many Christians face adversity that would destroy others, yet they endure joyfully. They have the inner strength that only God can give.

God will eventually replace the physical realm we inhabit with a new and glorious ream that is entirely free from any evil influence. Those who choose Christ in this life will enjoy the new realm. Those who reject Christ will be shut out of the new realm.

Ken-1122 · Aug 25, 2020

Aussie Pete said:
Heaven is the place where God dwells. God is Spirit. The material world is His creation. The physical world is not hell. The world system (all politics, religion, commerce, industry, entertainment, education, money, the military and so on) is controlled by Satan. It also is not physical.

People are blind both to God and Satan. Very few realise that Satan runs the world. No one is born knowing God. Everyone is born into the world system. We are like the descendants of slaves. We have not experienced God's realm, so we have no contrast.

When a person gets born again, he is released from the control of the world system. As I've said, God's realm is spiritual, not physical. So the born again Christian looks much the same, and usually his circumstances don't change much. However, inside he is entirely different. He is alive to God. He sees what unbelievers do not see. He hears what unbelievers do not hear. He understands things that seem to be nonsensical to unbelievers. His interests change. Things he loved lose their attraction and things he was indifferent, or even hostile to, become his priorities.

Christians have a new life-source. They have joy, peace, love, wisdom, self control, power and strength that does not derive from themselves. Not all Christians realise what they have and not all live as if it was true. However, many Christians face adversity that would destroy others, yet they endure joyfully. They have the inner strength that only God can give.

God will eventually replace the physical realm we inhabit with a new and glorious ream that is entirely free from any evil influence. Those who choose Christ in this life will enjoy the new realm. Those who reject Christ will be shut out of the new realm.

Okay; thanks for answering my question. The reason I asked the question on post #775 is because everybody on Earth have good days and bad days, suffer bad times, and enjoy good times. Thus people who choose to believe in Christ (people in Heaven) still suffer the hardships, and misery everyone else suffers, and those who don’t believe Christ (those in Hell) still enjoy good times, just like everyone else. This will be the case as long as your Heaven and Hell exists here on Earth. Does this make sense? If not; tell me where I’m going wrong.

Aussie Pete · Aug 27, 2020

Ken-1122 said:
Okay; thanks for answering my question. The reason I asked the question on post #775 is because everybody on Earth have good days and bad days, suffer bad times, and enjoy good times. Thus people who choose to believe in Christ (people in Heaven) still suffer the hardships, and misery everyone else suffers, and those who don’t believe Christ (those in Hell) still enjoy good times, just like everyone else. This will be the case as long as your Heaven and Hell exists here on Earth. Does this make sense? If not; tell me where I’m going wrong.

There is much more to life than what kind of a day you are having. There is a point to the Christian's life. Unbelievers have no point. There is hope for the Christian. There is no hope for the unbeliever. Even the suffering a Christian endures has a good purpose. And one day, believers will be taken from the earth and move to their new home. My worst day as a Christian is better than my best day as an unbeliever.

Before I was born again, I had "good" times. Mostly it revolved around alcohol, movies, TV, friends and work. At the same time I had a deep down discontentment. There had to be more to life. And there is. Much more. I could not go back to my old way of life. It was empty and vain.

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Is atheism inherently nihilistic?

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