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Okay, then your "subjectivity" seems to be more of an epistemological issue than an objection to the idea that there is an objective human good.
That seems to be the cause of some potential misunderstandings. When some people speak of an objective good, they don't mean to imply universal obviousness of that good. In principle, no one might know that good, and yet there would still be objective right and wrong -- it simply happens to be undiscovered.
I tend to find the epistemological issue not as interesting as the question of whether there is or isn't a human good. It's like saying that the idea that the Earth is round is "subjective" because a few flat-earthers might exist.
eudaimonia,
Mark
That ethics/morality are not universal, unchangeable, does not mean that these things are "arbitrary."
Your question, sacrificing one innocent, etc., is interesting, as you're Christian, and, theologically, there are no "innocents" in Christianity. All humans, from the moment of birth, are subject to original sin, and potential sinners.
Good, bad, moral, evil, etc. do not exist by themselves; they only exist in the context of human thought. If humans did not exist; neither would good, bad, morality, or evil.It's clear that we have a problem of communication.
I don't use the word "objective" in precisely that way in this context. I mean that what is objective pertains to something real, not merely in the mind. Demonstration would be helpful, but isn't required for something to be real. Before it is demonstrated, it is just as real.
Values only exist in your head! Again; if mankind did not exist; neither would values.By demonstrating what leads to biological and psychological well-being as a human individual. The human good is what nourishes and sustains human life. Since rationality is an essential aspect of our nature, much of this has to do with what helps us to understand reality in conceptual terms (i.e. rationally) and to act on that understanding.
The key is understanding how values are a species of fact, and how human nature gives rise to values. Values are fully real in that life is a real activity, and values are an aspect of that self-generated, self-sustaining activity that is life.
eudaimonia,
Mark
You may want to listen to me if you were interested in opinions other than your own!I would hope, though, that it is not determined in a wholly arbitrary manner. Otherwise, I have no reason to listen to you.
I never said the 1 individual was innocent!I do find it interesting that you might be willing to sacrifice 1 innocent for the sake of 5000 who are doing something you consider evil ... depending on what that evil is of course.
You may want to listen to me if you were interested in opinions other than your own!
I never said the 1 individual was innocent!
Because I never said anything close to what you were extrapolating, perhaps you can ask me your question again so I can know what you are talking about.No need to get defensive. Indeed I was extrapolating. And I am interested in hearing how you discern these differences. Now is your chance to explain.
If you kill 5 people who were in the process of murdering a thousand innocent people, the harmful or violent act you committed against those five people would not be considered evil. Evil is up to subjective opinion.
Good, bad, moral, evil, etc. do not exist by themselves; they only exist in the context of human thought.
If humans did not exist; neither would good, bad, morality, or evil.
Values only exist in your head!
The Earth is not round, it is an oblate spheroid. Even deciding what is objective is a subjective choice a lot of the time! How close to round is round enough to be called round?
It started from this quote.
I asked if that principle scales and if it would work with different ratios. You answered no, that it can't be determined mathematically.
I then said I hope you don't determine such things arbitrarily. I assume your answer to that is, no, your decisions are not arbitrary.
My next question, then, is: What basis do you use for these decisions?
No, they exist in the context of human action. Thought may be involved, but good, bad, etc are more than simply concepts in one's head.
Obviously, but only trivially so.
The existence of human beings as biological beings means that there is a good-for and harmful-for human beings. It's not all in one's head. Values are good or bad in relation to human function.
False. Simply false.
The concept of you may exist in my head, but you as a living being do not exist in my head, or even yours. Your actions don't exist in my head or yours. Your act of writing posts to me does not just exist in my head or yours. There is mental activity involved with writing posts, but that isn't the concept of writing posts, but one part of the act of writing posts. Values pertain to one's actions -- they are not mere concepts.
eudaimomia,
Mark
These decisions are determined on a case by case basis.
I disagree! Good, bad,evil etc. are only values we put on human actions. Actions are real, but the value we place on human actions only exist in our heads. That's why the value of the human action will vary from person to person; it is subjective. If you disagree, give an example of a value that exist in itself.
Ken
Then let's try this:
Are the 5000 innocent? or guilty.
Your mistake is trying to separate consequences from value.The mistake you are making is that what we value is irrelevant.... the consequences of your actions are all that matters,
I was following your original statement, so the 5000 are "in the process of killing" the 100 innocents.
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