Atheism (2)

[Dave Ellis]

I believe God to be real and that He is revealed in the bible. (No doubt)
This would mean I am not a agnostic theist then I would think but just a theist!

Do you believe you know God's intentions, workings and overall nature, or do you believe that is ultimately beyond human comprehension?

 

[Going Merry]

Do you believe you know God's intentions, workings and overall nature, or do you believe that is ultimately beyond human comprehension?

Hmm well I know what He has revealed of himself in the bible. Other than what he reveals to me, I cannot possibly know more then that. To say that I myself *KNOW* everything about God is illogical. But what He has revealed of himself in the bible shows him to be love. So I do KNOW that he is love, he is justice etc. It is so difficult to even know my self, let alone a deity that is God. But I believe he revealed enough for me to grasp who He is.

I think because of my stance of knowing he is love puts me out of the agnostic theist section and into the theist section

 

[Dave Ellis]

Hmm well I know what He has revealed of himself in the bible. Other than what he reveals to me, I cannot possibly know more then that. To say that I myself *KNOW* everything about God is illogical. But what He has revealed of himself in the bible shows him to be love. So I do KNOW that he is love, he is justice etc. It is so difficult to even know my self, let alone a deity that is God. But I believe he revealed enough for me to grasp who He is.

I think because of my stance of knowing he is love puts me out of the agnostic theist section and into the theist section

Sorry, I didn't phrase the question quite right.

Do you believe it is possible to understand God's nature in full, or do you believe the full ways of god are ultimately impossible for us to ever fully understand?

 

[Going Merry]

Never thought about that, I don't know.

I guess it depends on the situation.

I can't say impossible, because that would be a oxymoron considering it IS God
But I can't say possible, because it IS God

I do know fully that his nature is *love* though. But who can know the mind of God?
God reveals what he wants and conceals what he wants.
So then i am reconfirmed in my belief that i am blind, deaf and paralytic when it comes to God

 

[Going Merry]

Honestly I am leaning towards theist. Because *I DO* know his character overall. I just am held up because I don't know *EVERYTHING*

 

[Dave Ellis]

Never thought about that, I don't know.

I guess it depends on the situation.

I can't say impossible, because that would be a oxymoron considering it IS God
But I can't say possible, because it IS God

I do know fully that his nature is *love* though. But who can know the mind of God?
God reveals what he wants and conceals what he wants.
So then i am reconfirmed in my belief that i am blind, deaf and paralytic when it comes to God

Ok, well, it sounds like you haven't really explored that question too much, in the sense that you haven't made up your mind what you think on the subject.

Don't get me wrong, there's nothing wrong with that at all.

So, I'll have to base it on what I can see. Based on your comments like "Who can know the mind of God?" etc, that is an Agnostic position. If you don't believe it is possible to know the mind of God, you're by definition an Agnostic.

A Gnostic on the flip-side is someone who believes that the full nature and character of God can be known by mankind. Many of the Gnostic Christians were persecuted and killed off by the Catholics back in the middle ages.

An example of a Gnostic religion would be that of Ancient Greece. They knew the stories, personalities, motives and character of their gods. They didn't "work in mysterious ways", they understood them in full.

 

[Going Merry]

Now I sort of feel Gnostic
I am so confused what to label my self
I guess it doesn't matter in the end, I still have the same beliefs.. Lol

 

[Dave Ellis]

Now I sort of feel Gnostic
I am so confused what to label my self
I guess it doesn't matter in the end, I still have the same beliefs.. Lol

lol, fair enough

But anyway, the original point of that whole bit was to illustrate what Agnosticism actually is.

It deals with knowledge about God, not god's existence.

The only positions you can have when it comes to the existence of God is Theism or Atheism. You either have a belief he exists (Theism), or you don't have a belief that he exists (Atheism).

If you're not sure if he exists or not, then you don't have a belief he exists.... but you are looking into it. By definition, since those people do not have a positive belief he exists, they are Atheists.

A ton of people in that situation mis-label themselves as Agnostics as the actual definition is not well known among Christians. The funny thing is most Christians, even hardcore, devout bible thumping ones (including the Pope) by definition are Agnostic. They believe God's plan and workings can't ever be fully comprehended by humans, no matter how hard we try.

Most Atheists however also are Agnostic, that goes for Richard Dawkins and probably every Atheist on this forum. We generally agree that if a God figure actually exists, he's outside the realm of science, and we can't understand a being like that using any known research or testing method.

 

[quatona]

but no evidence has been given to the contrary either.

You asked a question about my beliefs ("you "believe" there is no evidence for God right?"), I answered it ("No. It´s just that it has yet to be presented to me. You are invited to present it.").
Your recent response seems to change the subject.

 

[quatona]

all I am saying is that agnostics are honest enough to know that there is no evidence for atheism.

There´s plenty of evidence for atheism. If atheism didn´t exist you couldn´t make threads about it and talk with atheists.

 

[quatona]

but what about the existence for God arguments you have not heard of?

Yes, what to them? Until they are presented to me I can´t take them into consideration.

 

[quatona]

so either way, you can't know.....you should be agnostic.

Exactly. That´s why I am an agnostic atheist. I can´t know, so I won´t make any affirmative statement either way.
How do you deal with the fact that you can´t know?

 

[createdtoworship]

Exactly. That´s why I am an agnostic atheist. I can´t know, so I won´t make any affirmative statement either way.
How do you deal with the fact that you can´t know?

well I am a thiest, I believe in many or all the arguments for the existence of God. I just don't share those on an athiest forum.

 

[quatona]

well I am a thiest, I believe in many or all the arguments for the existence of God. I just don't share those on an athiest forum.

Please reread my question. Of course you needn´t answer it - but answering a different question comes across as evasion.

 

[KCfromNC]

If someone claims to be an Atheist and also claims to be angry at god... By definition that person is not an Atheist. He's a Theist who needs a dictionary

One can be upset at the actions of a fictional character in a story. It sucked when Old Yeller had to be put down - doesn't mean I thought it really happened (and I don't know for a fact it wasn't based on real events, so if it was pick another moving event in a truly made-up story).

 

[KCfromNC]

I never stated leprechauns existed?

Just like atheists don't state that god(s) exist. What's your point?

 

[KCfromNC]

Oh I hold a positive belief in theism, but I was just curious as to the definition of athiesm. Because atheism can't seem to get any evidence as to it's belief.

Atheists have the same evidence that they are atheists as you have that you're a theist.

 

[KCfromNC]

you "believe" there is no evidence for God right?

Nope, this isn't necessary to be an atheist. All that's required is a lack of belief in gods. How you get to that point is irrelevant.

 

[KCfromNC]

but what about the existence for God arguments you have not heard of?

Which ones, specifically?

all I am saying is that agnostics are honest enough to know that there is no evidence for atheism.

Ignoring the fact that many agnostics are atheists, in your opinion what is sufficient evidence for concluding one knows one's own beliefs?

 

[Dave Ellis]

well I am a thiest, I believe in many or all the arguments for the existence of God. I just don't share those on an athiest forum.

Well, that's good, because this is a Christian Forum.... the site is even called "christianforums.com". We just happen to be discussing Atheism on a Christian Forum.

So, what justification do you have to believe in the arguments for the existence of God?