At what point must grace overtake intellectual and biblical integrity?

[High Fidelity]

I suppose we've all experienced it at one point or another, especially on CF given how broad it is, but there are so many subjective 'truths' spread by certain groups that are objectively wrong.

An example of this is tongues and, to a larger extent, spiritual gifts in general. I am mostly concerned with tongues in particular because that's usually the most common and focused upon, but when it gets to the point where people are claiming that salvation and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit is only apparent and evident when said person can and does speak tongues.

Not only is this unsupported in Scripture, it's a level of intellectual dishonesty perpetrated by a group of Christians whose faith mostly relies on experiential aspects that is difficult to ignore and simply walk away from and not, well, be incensed at.

I work with a woman and she was telling me how terrible she felt before she could 'speak tongues'. She felt like she wasn't saved, wasn't Christian, that God didn't love her or that there was just something she wasn't doing. It was awful, but she was also a very genuine and sincere person. I know in her heart that's what she felt was right and that she was pursuing God in the way she thought was right, so when I went through Scripture with her it was actually very fruitful.
Online, this is seldom the case. Discussing it typically only serves to entrench a person in their position that actively seeks out the opportunity to defend their position as opposed to considering it, scrutinising it and testing it.

So in your experience, what point do you consider the correct time to walk away? I don't think it's right to simply ignore and not at least try, but I also know it's fruitless beyond a certain point and I'm struggling to find that balance.

P.S. I posted this here and not Semper Reformanda because I still consider this home

Thanks!

 

[Hammster]

Are you asking about walking away from the discussion altogether?

 

[mark kennedy]

I suppose we've all experienced it at one point or another, especially on CF given how broad it is, but there are so many subjective 'truths' spread by certain groups that are objectively wrong.

An example of this is tongues and, to a larger extent, spiritual gifts in general. I am mostly concerned with tongues in particular because that's usually the most common and focused upon, but when it gets to the point where people are claiming that salvation and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit is only apparent and evident when said person can and does speak tongues.

Not only is this unsupported in Scripture, it's a level of intellectual dishonesty perpetrated by a group of Christians whose faith mostly relies on experiential aspects that is difficult to ignore and simply walk away from and not, well, be incensed at.

I work with a woman and she was telling me how terrible she felt before she could 'speak tongues'. She felt like she wasn't saved, wasn't Christian, that God didn't love her or that there was just something she wasn't doing. It was awful, but she was also a very genuine and sincere person. I know in her heart that's what she felt was right and that she was pursuing God in the way she thought was right, so when I went through Scripture with her it was actually very fruitful.
Online, this is seldom the case. Discussing it typically only serves to entrench a person in their position that actively seeks out the opportunity to defend their position as opposed to considering it, scrutinising it and testing it.

So in your experience, what point do you consider the correct time to walk away? I don't think it's right to simply ignore and not at least try, but I also know it's fruitless beyond a certain point and I'm struggling to find that balance.

P.S. I posted this here and not Semper Reformanda because I still consider this home

Thanks!

I was in an Assemblies of God church for about a year, never thought what they did was New Testament tongues. It was my experience that the brief discussions of tongues would last a few minutes and apart from that they are pretty much evangelical. We did a study on the gifts of the Holy Spirit which more or less excluded tongues. When it came to that part a lay minister came in and gave the lesson and there was little time for an open forum discussion.

I became acquainted with a Pentecostal on here, he insisted on a formal debate on tongues. We ended up talking past one another and even the simplest of expositions were something of a challenge.

I think there is something much more important to realize about out Pentecostal brethren. They are revivalists, the old pioneer tent revivals that used to sweep rural America. Highly emotive and enthusiastic, they may not have genuine New Testament tongues but they are New Testament Christians. Honestly I would have a much bigger problem with Liberal theology that dismisses miraculous manifestations then someone who is a little over zealous about them.

Grace and peace,
Mark

 

[mark kennedy]

Are you asking about walking away from the discussion altogether?

Speaking only for myself, it's been my experience you just don't dwell on the subject.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

I suppose we've all experienced it at one point or another, especially on CF given how broad it is, but there are so many subjective 'truths' spread by certain groups that are objectively wrong.

An example of this is tongues and, to a larger extent, spiritual gifts in general. I am mostly concerned with tongues in particular because that's usually the most common and focused upon, but when it gets to the point where people are claiming that salvation and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit is only apparent and evident when said person can and does speak tongues.

Not only is this unsupported in Scripture, it's a level of intellectual dishonesty perpetrated by a group of Christians whose faith mostly relies on experiential aspects that is difficult to ignore and simply walk away from and not, well, be incensed at.

I work with a woman and she was telling me how terrible she felt before she could 'speak tongues'. She felt like she wasn't saved, wasn't Christian, that God didn't love her or that there was just something she wasn't doing. It was awful, but she was also a very genuine and sincere person. I know in her heart that's what she felt was right and that she was pursuing God in the way she thought was right, so when I went through Scripture with her it was actually very fruitful.
Online, this is seldom the case. Discussing it typically only serves to entrench a person in their position that actively seeks out the opportunity to defend their position as opposed to considering it, scrutinising it and testing it.

So in your experience, what point do you consider the correct time to walk away? I don't think it's right to simply ignore and not at least try, but I also know it's fruitless beyond a certain point and I'm struggling to find that balance.

P.S. I posted this here and not Semper Reformanda because I still consider this home

Thanks!

In person, it's best to wait until people ask for advice. You can certainly toss little tidbits out there to se if there is any interest, but there a LOTS of Christians with insane theology, and what's worse, they haven't thought through their theology, so they defend it emotionally. Tell them the truth about tongues and they will act as if you called their baby ugly.

 

[JIMINZ]

I suppose we've all experienced it at one point or another, especially on CF given how broad it is, but there are so many subjective 'truths' spread by certain groups that are objectively wrong.

An example of this is tongues and, to a larger extent, spiritual gifts in general. I am mostly concerned with tongues in particular because that's usually the most common and focused upon, but when it gets to the point where people are claiming that salvation and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit is only apparent and evident when said person can and does speak tongues.

Not only is this unsupported in Scripture, it's a level of intellectual dishonesty perpetrated by a group of Christians whose faith mostly relies on experiential aspects that is difficult to ignore and simply walk away from and not, well, be incensed at.

I work with a woman and she was telling me how terrible she felt before she could 'speak tongues'. She felt like she wasn't saved, wasn't Christian, that God didn't love her or that there was just something she wasn't doing. It was awful, but she was also a very genuine and sincere person. I know in her heart that's what she felt was right and that she was pursuing God in the way she thought was right, so when I went through Scripture with her it was actually very fruitful.
Online, this is seldom the case. Discussing it typically only serves to entrench a person in their position that actively seeks out the opportunity to defend their position as opposed to considering it, scrutinising it and testing it.

So in your experience, what point do you consider the correct time to walk away? I don't think it's right to simply ignore and not at least try, but I also know it's fruitless beyond a certain point and I'm struggling to find that balance.

P.S. I posted this here and not Semper Reformanda because I still consider this home

Thanks!

I find, if a person seeks, knocks, and asks, they will find.

The seeking knocking and asking must be done with an open heart toward God.

God knows the condition of our heart, and if we are not seeing knowledge of Him in order to draw closer to Him, we will never see the truth of the matter we appear to be seeking.

I believe we have all had the experience of speaking to a person, where the truth was right there for them to have, it was so strong and clear it was palpable, but that person never came to the understanding of it, and went his merry way.

It's that simple, if someone does not want the truth, they will not see (understand) it, even if it is staring them right in the face.

There is a point in a conversation where we know, nothing we say is making a dent, that is the time the discussion has ended, and we should walk away.

On the other hand, if we enter into a discussion, onr hearts must be as open as the others is, we must be willing to receive the truth of a subject as well as we expect the other to receive.

It comes down to the intent of the heart, both theirs, and ours.

Rom 2:21
Thou therefore which teachest another, teachest thou not thyself?



Be Blessed

 

[High Fidelity]

Are you asking about walking away from the discussion altogether?

I guess so. After a while there's just no point discussing it because it won't produce anything, much less edifying.

 

[Hammster]

I guess so. After a while there's just no point discussing it because it won't produce anything, much less edifying.

Yes. When it comes to that topic, I state my opinion and move on, in general.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

" At what point must grace overtake intellectual and biblical integrity? "

So far, the op and thread have nothing to do with the title, do they ?
Other than missing integrity , it appears. And grace.