At What Point Do You Think You Are Truly Saved?

[Saint Steven]

Proponents and opponents of "once saved always saved" will both state that they are relying on the scriptures to support their view.
The fact is that anyone of us is free to interpret the scriptures any way we choose. That is why we have literally thousands of Christian denominations, each with their own views on what the Bible supposedly teaches.
I think it helps to find out what the earliest Christians had to say about the matter. Why? Because they were the very ones who were taught directly by the Apostles. They lived around the same time the gospels were first written. Virtually none of them believed in once saved always saved. From the evidence that we have, it is clear that they believed it was possible for an unpersevering and negligent Christian to lose their salvation. I am one of those who happens to agree with their teaching.
As a non-supporter of OSAS, I have, many times, been been judged of "heresy" by those who support this view. Yet I am more inclined to accept the teachings of the early Christians taught by the Apostles, rather than those of the later Reformers who appeared over a millenium and a half later. Whoever is the heretic, if indeed there is one, I leave it up to you to decide.
So in response to the question, my answer is one, two and three.

Do you hold a similar view on the Trinity? (another late arrival)
And what about all the trappings of the orthodox churches? Did we get that from the early church?

 

[Saint Steven]

Paul declares so in 2 Timothy 3 and Peter confirms Paul's epistles are Scripture in 2 Peter 3.

Jesus also promised He would bring everything to the disciples remembrance after Pentecost when they received the promised Holy Spirit that would guide them into ALL Truth.

Any other questions on the inspired writings in the N.T. ?

hope this helps !!!

I suppose the problem with this argument is that you can't use a document to prove the veracity of itself. An outside source is needed. (for a solid debate point)

BNR32FAN said: ↑
How do you know that the New Testament books were inspired by God?

 

[Saint Steven]

The church is the body of Christ. It is invisible until two or more meet in Jesus' name. Then it returns to invisibility. Anyone saved belongs to this church body of Christ.

I think that is a misuse of that scripture.
It comes from a passage about church discipline. The reference is to the authority of gathered believers to administer discipline in Jesus' name. (following proper procedures)

To claim that God/Jesus is not present until there are two or three gathered is to claim that we are orphaned without such. The indwelling Spirit never leaves or forsakes us. Jesus is a friend that stays closer than a brother.

I cringe when I hear someone use that statement as an "invocation" in a meeting. Thus declaring that God was not already there before you arrived. (bad confession)

 

[Saint Steven]

Matthew 22:14

We have a saying in the north.
Many are cold, but few are frozen. - lol

 

[zoidar]

Matthew 22:14

Without any explanation, this quote is pretty meaningless.

 

[Saint Steven]

The reality is this debate can go on but it will be clear at the judgement. That's when we're saved.

Can we not say with confidence (on good authority) that we are indeed saved due to the indwelling Spirit as a guarantee? (with evidence)

2 Corinthians 1:22
set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.

2 Corinthians 5:5
Now the one who has fashioned us for this very purpose is God, who has given us the Spirit as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.

Ephesians 1:14
who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

Romans 4:16
Therefore, the promise comes by faith, so that it may be by grace and may be guaranteed to all Abraham’s offspring—not only to those who are of the law but also to those who have the faith of Abraham. He is the father of us all.

 

[Saint Steven]

Without any explanation, this quote is pretty meaningless.

That would help. But isn't it a direct response to the OP?

 

[Dave L]

I think that is a misuse of that scripture.
It comes from a passage about church discipline. The reference is to the authority of gathered believers to administer discipline in Jesus' name. (following proper procedures)

To claim that God/Jesus is not present until there are two or three gathered is to claim that we are orphaned without such. The indwelling Spirit never leaves or forsakes us. Jesus is a friend that stays closer than a brother.

I cringe when I hear someone use that statement as an "invocation" in a meeting. Thus declaring that God was not already there before you arrived. (bad confession)

“And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.” Colossians 1:18 (KJV 1900)

 

[Saint Steven]

True salvation will not happen until judgement day when we are saved from death and hell. Jesus said “He who endures to the end will be saved”. So salvation is a process and journey that we are on as disciples of Jesus Christ and culminates at our death and the return of Christ.

That is a misuse of that scripture. The context is the end-times scenario. Those who aspire to such live in constant fear of losing their salvation.

 

[public hermit]

Can we not say with confidence (on good authority) that we are indeed saved due to the indwelling Spirit as a guarantee? (with evidence)

2 Corinthians 1:22
set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.

2 Corinthians 5:5
Now the one who has fashioned us for this very purpose is God, who has given us the Spirit as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.

Ephesians 1:14
who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

Romans 4:16
Therefore, the promise comes by faith, so that it may be by grace and may be guaranteed to all Abraham’s offspring—not only to those who are of the law but also to those who have the faith of Abraham. He is the father of us all.

Yes, I think we can. Nonetheless, a guarantee is given for the sake of a future fulfilment. Salvation, in the strict sense, is a future event. I think keeping this in mind keeps us from presuming on grace and reminds us of the now/not yet status of the present. But, yes, we can legitimately say we are now saved and that we are being saved.

 

[Saint Steven]

Like I said their writings are not inspired.

next..............................

There may have been (were) lots of inspired writings that were not considered for the canon of scripture. The original intent was that whatever was in the canon was suitable for public readings of scripture. Many books did make the cut, but not based on whether they were inspired or not. (as I understand it)

 

[Saint Steven]

“And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.” Colossians 1:18 (KJV 1900)

I agree, but that doesn't make the church "invisible" when we are by ourselves. Frankly, the church is ALWAYS visible to someone.

Your argument is similar to:
“If a tree falls in a forest and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound?”
― George Berkeley

 

[Saint Steven]

No the actual disciple's of Peter, John and Paul confirmed they wrote them.

next........................

We Protestants have such a myopic view of the origins of the Bible.

Unfortunately we open our Bible to the first book in the NT and it says: "The Gospel According to Matthew". But church history questions its authorship. If we can't trust the title, what do we do with the rest of it? (this is troubling)

Therefore, questioning such things is valid, though off-topic.

 

[Saint Steven]

Paul or his disciples post mortem in 2nd Timothy write that all scripture is God breathed and useful for teaching, preaching, rebuking, and training in righteousness - so that the man of God can be equipped for every good work. So if a part of the canon does not fulfill this purpose - does that mean it is not scripture?

A letter by Peter confirms Paul's epistles are scripture - the list of epistles are not listed.

There is the promise that the Holy Spirit would lead us into all truth, there is not a promise that the bible will lead us into all truth.

What was "all scripture" at the time that was written?

 

[Saint Steven]

Dare we forget the warning in Matthew 24:13? "He who who perseveres to the end, will be saved", implying that if we fail to persevere to the end, that we will not be saved.

The context is about the end times. It doesn't apply to salvation in general. IMHO

 

[Saint Steven]

There is NO "Visible CHurch System" that bears much resemblance at all to the "Apostolic Church" which was already starting to fragment and denominationalize in Paul's time.

Right.
We tend to put the Apostles on a pedestal. But the Book of the Acts of the Apostles shows that they were very much human. As soon as they thought they had things figured out, God changed the rules.

Case in point, Samaria.
Why didn't they receive the Spirit when they were baptized? Foolish men used a formula rather than listening to God. Still happening today. Every denomination and orthodox church has a formula. Where is God in this? (thrown out)

 

[Saint Steven]

God is not mocked. God's forgiveness is not based on the value of your apology.

Your regeneration, your changed heart, your source of living water, your everlasting faith by the work of the Holy Spirit, having become one with Christ, will not allow you to continue in sin. So don't. Maybe you will find you too are one of his. Pursue Christ.

I think we are ragamuffins.
We arrive at heaven's gate with nothing but dirty rags to cover our nakedness.
And the Father runs to embrace us.

 

[Saint Steven]

Christ died only for those God intended to save. Most perish.

Not too sure about that.

1 John 2:2
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

Romans 11:32
For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

Titus 2:11
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people,

 

[Saint Steven]

Sometimes you are funny Dave! Your theology is giving you blinders. I don't know if it is that you don't want to see the truth, or if you actually can't see it.

God bless!

It's called Calvinism.

 

[Saint Steven]

Nobody outside of the church is saved.

Not sure about that either.

Romans 5:18-19
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people,
so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners,
so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

Colossians 1:19-20
For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him,
20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.