At what point do we become responsible for talking against leaders like Trump?

[1Tonne]

Honesty requires that we admit this kind of thing isn't merely a MAGA phenomenon. One of the symptoms of Trump's decline is that he divides the world into friends and enemies. To the degree you've bought into that, you've lost perspective.

America does have enemies. Take, for instance, Iran. Iran would like Israel and the US wiped off the face of the earth. With people who have a mindset like that, you may attempt to have a dialogue, but this does not always happen.

If you think stealing classified material, sexual assault, lying, slander, and repeated adultery are bad things, I suppose so. Apparently, there's still one commandment he hasn't broken, if that means anything to you.

You are spreading slander again. He was never convicted of stealing classified material.
Even Biden was found with classified documents in his private possession as well, and he was never prosecuted. So, the charge against Trump can be taken as many of the other charges that he is accused of daily. A witch hunt.

In regard to the sexual assault:
I think that if Moses were to become president, then the Democrats would do whatever they could to get him out of office. They would make up all sorts of stuff, and some of it may be true. They would say things like, "God would not appoint this person in place because he is a murderer. How could God put a murderer in place?" Or they may say, "He is doing it for the power, he is exulting himself", as the sons of Kora did.
So, if God puts leaders in place, are you going to be one who thinks his judgment is better than God's? Are you like the sons of Kora who challenged Moses' leadership?
God appoints all leaders, whether you like it or not and some of these leaders, like Moses have done bad things. I do not think that you should belittle God's choice of men. You will not find one that is perfect.

I'm looking at the economy

If you check the Dow Jones you will see that it is still about the same as when Trump came into office. You should not blow things out of proportion.

his incitement of the Jan 6 inserrection

I do not know what inserrection you are talking about. I know that on the 6th of Jan, people protested the election, thinking that fraud had been committed. But that is different to an inserrection. It was simply a protest that got out of hand. Many democrats framed it as an inserrection by the crowd.

What measurable good do you think he's done to counter his criminal and moral offenses? The economy isn't looking so good since he took office, although his kowtowing to China on tariffs has brought the stock market up (not quite to Biden level, but not as bad as it was).

If they carried on simply as they had, as you wanted, then China would take over. (Don't be so blind to this)
If you check the Dow Jones you will see that it is still about the same as when Trump came into office. You should not blow things out of proportion.

Why would listening to him lie help anything?

Because that is part of the point of this. You only look at one side of the media. Your view is that there is nothing that Trump has done that is good.

Trump caved to China, and backed off his tariffs without getting anything in return. China "graciously" removed the tariffs they implemented after Trump imposed his tariffs. And he's celebrating that as a victory.

The sad thing is, this is probably the closest thing to good news for America since he was inaugurated.

This is what I mean. You can only see the negative even when it is good. Your eyes are very slanted.

 

[The Barbarian]

America does have enemies.

But until now, they weren't actually in charge. Putin seeks the destruction of American constitutional government, and his ally is our president.
If you think stealing classified material, sexual assault, lying, slander, and repeated adultery are bad things, I suppose so. Apparently, there's still one commandment he hasn't broken, if that means anything to you.

You are spreading slander again.

It's all true.

He was never convicted of stealing classified material.

Dodging the indictment with a judge he had appointed is not vindication. He stole the material; he got caught hiding it. Those are just the facts.

I'm looking at the economy. It's a mess.

If you check the Dow Jones you will see that it is still about the same as when Trump came into office.

If this had happened to Biden, there would have been screams about impeachment.

I do not know what inserrection you are talking about.

The one that Trump ordered his people to do to stop the certification of the election he lost to Biden. That one. The one where they broke into the Capitol, attacked police officers, and forced Congress to hide in a shelter until the insurrectionists could be defeated and removed. The one for which Trump pardoned all of them, after they admitted that they were just following his orders.

It was simply a protest that got out of hand.

They were screaming "Hang Mike Pence", assaulting police, looting offices, and trying to shut down certification of an election even Trump's AG admitted was fair and legal. If you think that's simply a protest that got out of hand, we've located your problem.

What measurable good do you think he's done to counter his criminal and moral offenses? The economy isn't looking so good since he took office, although his kowtowing to China on tariffs has brought the stock market up (not quite to Biden level, but not as bad as it was).

If they carried on simply as they had, as you wanted, then China would take over.

No one believes that. In fact, Trump was happy to leave it be in his first administration. When Trump finally surrendered to China, the tariffs went back to the way they were, just as the Chinese intended. It's the first time we lost a trade war with China.

If you check the Dow Jones you will see that it is still about the same as when Trump came into office.

Now it is, after Trump surrendered to China, and brought tariffs down to levels that wouldn't damage Americans.

Why would listening to him lie help anything?

You only look at one side of the media. Your view is that there is nothing that Trump has done that is good.

You like inventing things and insisting others must believe them. I keep an eye on everything from Huff Post to WND. And for example, I praised Trump's move to speed up development of a COVID-19 vaccine. Maybe you should focus on making sure what you write is true?

This is what I mean. You can only see the negative even when it is good. Your eyes are very slanted.

In English usage, that's kind of a racial slur. I'll assume that you did not intend it to be so.

 

[1Tonne]

Apparently, there's still one commandment he hasn't broken, if that means anything to you.

Trump has done bad things. So did Moses, David and every other person in the bible (with one exception).
I take it that the reason you are throwing so many stones is because you are without sin.

I'm looking at the economy. It's a mess.

It is a mess. It has been in a downward spiral for 40-odd years. That is why Trump has chosen not to continue doing the same thing.

If this had happened to Biden, there would have been screams about impeachment.

Here is the Dow Jones over 6 months. Check when Trump came in, it was about 42000, and then currently it is around 42000. No panic here. Even when it did drop, the Democrats made it sound like the economy had tanked. But it was still fine. It was simply going through a correction period. And there still may be a few more correction periods. This does not mean the economy is crashing. Democrats need to not exagerate things so badly.

Dow Jones Industrial Average Price, Real-time Quote & News - Google Finance

Get the latest Dow Jones Industrial Average (.DJI) value, historical performance, charts, and other financial information to help you make more informed trading and investment decisions.

www.google.com

What measurable good do you think he's done to counter his criminal and moral offenses?

You sound like a Christian who believes he has to make up for all the bad things he has done to make his way into heaven.

The economy isn't looking so good since he took office, although his kowtowing to China on tariffs has brought the stock market up (not quite to Biden level, but not as bad as it was).

Sadly, you would rather mock the president instead of giving him credit by calling him a great negotiator. When negotiating, you start by playing hardball and then you relent a little to show that you are willing to make a deal. Both China and Trump played hardball because they are both good at negotiating. And both have relented, with Trump coming out on top.
If Trump were to do it your way, then he would never relent, and neither would China, and then you would have an economic disaster on your hands. But luckily for us, Trump is good at his job.
Give credit where credit is due instead of scoffing. It shows the state of your heart.

No one believes that.

Are you sure or is this another one of your exagerations? I can give links but I think that you should look them up becuase then it may give you an idea as to why Trump has done the tarriff war.

When Trump finally surrendered to China, the tariffs went back to the way they were, just as the Chinese intended. It's the first time we lost a trade war with China.

Trump did not surrender to China. That is a small-minded way to look at it. Do you know how negotiations work? Trump came out on top. He did not lose.

Now it is, after Trump surrendered to China

For one, you do not have a clue how negotiating works. Please get educated before you speak about the economy.
Even before they agreed, the Dow Jones was only 1000 points below what it was when Trump came into office. That is nothing. So, the agreement hasn't made a massive spike. It had already started to work its way up.

You like inventing things and insisting others must believe them. I keep an eye on everything from Huff Post to WND. And for example, I praised Trump's move to speed up development of a COVID-19 vaccine. Maybe you should focus on making sure what you write is true?

Your comments reflect your heart. And what we look at goes into us, and so we can see what you look at. From out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks. Or in your case, the fingers type.

In English usage, that's kind of a racial slur. I'll assume that you did not intend it to be so.

Again, you have just proved my point. I was saying that you look for the worst in Trump, and now, you a looking to make me look bad too. I am simply saying how you look for as much wrongdoing in others as possible. So, your eyes look for crookedness. You look for the mistakes that people may make without seeing the good.

Overall, the discussion with you is pointless, as I can see that you look for the worst in others and are blinded to the positive. So, you concentrate and dwell on the negative. And I can see that this is true simply by looking at the wording under your username. "Crabby Old White Guy".
I hope you start to look at other media because then you may not look at others in such a negative light, and you may have a happier life. Blessings, and I will pray for you.

 

[1Tonne]

I'm looking at the economy. It's a mess.

Here is a good video that you may like. It points out how the tariffs could be a bad idea. (Only 10 mins)

 

[The Barbarian]

Here is a good video that you may like. It points out how the tariffs could be a bad idea. (Only 10 mins)

The video starts out denying what actually happened. And it goes down from there.

How Trump's loss to China gives it an opening to replace American influence in the world:

 

[The Barbarian]

Trump has done bad things. So did Moses, David and every other person in the bible (with one exception).
I take it that the reason you are throwing so many stones is because you are without sin.

They had God rebuking them. Trump says he doesn't need to ask God for forgiveness. That's a major tip-off right away. Everyone has to serve someone. But in Trump's case, it's not God.

I take it that the reason you are throwing so many stones is because you are without sin.

It is every American's duty to call out leaders who fail to uphold their responsibilities.

“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.” ​

Theodore Roosevelt​

I'm looking at the economy. It's a mess.

It is a mess. It has been in a downward spiral for 40-odd years.

Well, that's a testable assumption...

Oct 2024:
The COVID-19 pandemic-era recession was unlike any other in U.S. history. Beginning in February 2020, the recession quickly reached depths not experienced in roughly a century before abating just as fast—lasting just two months according to the National Bureau of Economic Research. A combination of unprecedented fiscal support, rapid deployment of vaccines, and structural economic resilience all helped jumpstart the swift and enduring U.S. recovery, with the economic expansion now entering its fourth year. As the economy continues to grow, two important characteristics have emerged: (i) the U.S. avoided the deep economic scarring that impacted millions of American households in the last recovery; and (ii) the U.S. recovery has far outpaced most of its G10 peer countries.

The US recovery from COVID-19 in international comparison

The U.S. is significantly outperforming its G10 peers in the economic recovery from COVID-19, Robin Brooks and Ben Harris find.

www.brookings.edu

I don't see a "downward spiral" there. Granted, it doesn't have The last five years on it, but clearly your assumption is wrong.

Trump did not surrender to China.

He did. China wanted Trump's huge tariffs to end. Trump complied with their demands. He surrendered.

He did not lose.

He complied with China's demands. They gave him nothing in return but some nice words for doing what they wanted. Economists predicted this debacle:

Apr 25, 2025 4:00 AM CT

Why Trump Will Blink First on China​

Why Trump Will Blink First on China

The U.S. President signalled a shift when he said that tariffs will have to "come down substantially," writes Ryan Hass.

time.com

Please get educated before you speak about the economy.

Venting at me won't improve your argument. Aligning your arguments with the facts would do that for you.

1Tonne said:
You only look at one side of the media. Your view is that there is nothing that Trump has done that is good.

You like inventing things and insisting others must believe them. I keep an eye on everything from Huff Post to WND. And for example, I praised Trump's move to speed up development of a COVID-19 vaccine. Maybe you should focus on making sure what you write is true?

Your comments reflect your heart.

The truth matters to me. It should matter to everyone.

(Comments about me having "slanted eyes."}

In English usage, that's kind of a racial slur. I'll assume that you did not intend it to be so.

Again, you have just proved my point. I was saying that you look for the worst in Trump, and now, you a looking to make me look bad too.

I'm assuming that you weren't aware of the way it reads in English. I was giving you the benefit of a doubt.

Overall, the discussion with you is pointless

You've actually helped a great deal in illuminating things in this discussion. When people discuss disagreements, it's rare that either of them get 100% of what they where hoping for, in the way the discussion proceeds. But I think this one brought up a number of important issues and facts concerning them. A good result, I think.

And I can see that this is true simply by looking at the wording under your username. "Crabby Old White Guy".

I find that it helps a lot if I can laugh at myself and not take myself too seriously. Maybe that's true for all of us.

 

[The_Mantis]

The negative talk about Trump from CNN, MSNBC etc. is what we are talking about here. They are absolutely biased against anyone on the right, especially Trump. Fox is the same way about the left. They straight up lie about him. Straight out lies. And yall believe it. That’s the problem.

 

[The_Mantis]

Also I don’t think the anti-Trump crowd understand how tariffs work. You make sky high tariffs to cripple the oppositions economy. Then you negotiate the tariffs down to a reasonable price which is what he did. It’s pretty far from “caving to China”. He got exactly what he wanted and you’re trying to spin it. It’s a strategy that you can’t grasp because of your hatred for the man. Blinding hatred.

 

[The Barbarian]

The negative talk about Trump from CNN, MSNBC etc. is what we are talking about here.

We're talking about the negative things the WSJ, Ben Shapiro, and other right wing media are saying about him.

They straight up lie about him. Straight out lies. And yall believe it. That’s the problem.

Sorry, that excuse isn't working. He lies constantly. And now he's taken a huge bribe from a regime that supports terrorists, as Trump supporter Laura Loomer points out.

Also I don’t think the anti-Trump crowd understand how tariffs work. You make sky high tariffs to cripple the oppositions economy.

You don't seem to realize how it works. The United States tried that in 1939. Guess how the Hawley-Smoot tariffs worked. Hint: It was intended to reverse the economic decline. Instead it made everything worse.

Here's why:

Are tariffs bad for growth? Yes, say five decades of data from 150 countries - PMC

The empirical evidence on the growth effects of import tariffs is sparse in the literature, notwithstanding strong views held by the public and politicians. Using an annual panel of macroeconomic data for 151 countries over 1963–2014, we find that ...

pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Then you negotiate the tariffs down to a reasonable price which is what he did.

He lowered his tariffs when the Chinese called his bluff and raised tariffs on our agricultural products. He had no choice; about 20% of our agricultural output was going to China.

He got exactly what he wanted

He's trying to spin it that way, but the Chinese played him.

When President Donald Trump launched his trade war on the world, he issued a stern warning: “Do not retaliate and you will be rewarded.” China ignored the warning. It was rewarded anyway. This morning, Trump largely suspended his trade war in return for nothing but promises of ongoing discussions. There is a lesson here for everybody Trump threatens, whether countries or businesses or universities.

China Called Trump’s Bluff

There is a lesson here for anyone Trump threatens.

www.yahoo.com

It’s a surrender that you can’t grasp because of your allegiance to this guy. Blind allegiance.

 

[The_Mantis]

We're talking about the negative things the WSJ, Ben Shapiro, and other right wing media are saying about him.


Sorry, that excuse isn't working. He lies constantly. And now he's taken a huge bribe from a regime that supports terrorists, as Trump supporter Laura Loomer points out.

You don't seem to realize how it works. The United States tried that in 1939. Guess how the Hawley-Smoot tariffs worked. Hint: It was intended to reverse the economic decline. Instead it made everything worse.

Here's why:

Are tariffs bad for growth? Yes, say five decades of data from 150 countries - PMC

The empirical evidence on the growth effects of import tariffs is sparse in the literature, notwithstanding strong views held by the public and politicians. Using an annual panel of macroeconomic data for 151 countries over 1963–2014, we find that ...

pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

He lowered his tariffs when the Chinese called his bluff and raised tariffs on our agricultural products. He had no choice; about 20% of our agricultural output was going to China.

He's trying to spin it that way, but the Chinese played him.

When President Donald Trump launched his trade war on the world, he issued a stern warning: “Do not retaliate and you will be rewarded.” China ignored the warning. It was rewarded anyway. This morning, Trump largely suspended his trade war in return for nothing but promises of ongoing discussions. There is a lesson here for everybody Trump threatens, whether countries or businesses or universities.

China Called Trump’s Bluff

There is a lesson here for anyone Trump threatens.

www.yahoo.com

It’s a surrender that you can’t grasp because of your allegiance to this guy. Blind allegiance.

this is so stupid. I despise our government. I have no allegiance to Trump whatsoever. You sure assume a lot about someone. We just had four years of being led by a man that couldn’t tie his own shoes and caused massive inflation(not only him but the past three presidents). The damage he caused is unbelievable.

The lies in the media are blatant. How can you not see that? Agenda, propaganda.

Actually never mind. None of this is even worth my time debating this idiocy. Y’all can just keep hating this man, this country and those that voted right. I’ll just focus on Jesus.

 

[The Barbarian]

this is so stupid.

Well, I think most of us were thinking that...

I despise our government. I have no allegiance to Trump whatsoever.

I see the denial, but your behavior is more persuasive.

We just had four years of being led by a man that couldn’t tie his own shoes and caused massive inflation(

So you guys are now blaming him for the way the COVID-19 response was bungled? That's Trump's fall-back "It's all great, and if it isn't, it's Biden's fault."

Agenda, propaganda.

But it's not working for him anymore. Even some of his media cheerleaders are now criticizing him.

None of this is even worth my time debating this idiocy.

That's what many of his former administration people have said.

I’ll just focus on Jesus.

Much better decision.

 

[1Tonne]

They had God rebuking them. Trump says he doesn't need to ask God for forgiveness. That's a major tip-off right away. Everyone has to serve someone. But in Trump's case, it's not God.

I do agree that he said that.
In saying this, God still appoints leaders. Whether they are Christian or not. God put him in place, and so we should respect his decision instead of mocking it or going head-on against it.

How Trump's loss to China gives it an opening to replace American influence in the world:

Watched the video, and I was pretty amazed you took note of it. It is very extreme in its view (But that is MSNBC in general), and I can see why you argue like what you do in light of what you watch. They had a very weak argument that scientists and researchers are going to go overseas. But if you bring production into a country, then there will be a great need for scientists, and because there is more money in the economy (because of production), they will get paid more. China was never known as a country that had great innovation back in the 70's, but since it increased its manufacturing plants, it now has many scientists. So, by increasing production and manufacturing within a country, you will also increase science and innovation.

I don't see a "downward spiral" there.

Stop printing off money, and you will see a downward spiral.

You've actually helped a great deal in illuminating things in this discussion. When people discuss disagreements, it's rare that either of them get 100% of what they where hoping for, in the way the discussion proceeds. But I think this one brought up a number of important issues and facts concerning them. A good result, I think.

My main goal for the thread was that people think more before speaking what they have read or seen. Especially when it is only an opinion. (Like all the scientists going over seas)
I hope you will choose to watch a wider variety of media now.

I find that it helps a lot if I can laugh at myself and not take myself too seriously. Maybe that's true for all of us.

I am not a "Crabby Old Man". Most people like to hang out with me because I try to build people up. Not tear them down.

The negative talk about Trump from CNN, MSNBC etc. is what we are talking about here. They are absolutely biased against anyone on the right, especially Trump. Fox is the same way about the left. They straight up lie about him. Straight out lies. And yall believe it. That’s the problem.

Yes. Sadly, this has turned more into a thread where people sling stones, and it is due to the media they watch. And that was the point of the thread. We need to be careful about what we watch. What we watch goes into us and then overflows out of the mouth.

Also I don’t think the anti-Trump crowd understand how tariffs work. You make sky high tariffs to cripple the oppositions economy. Then you negotiate the tariffs down to a reasonable price which is what he did. It’s pretty far from “caving to China”. He got exactly what he wanted and you’re trying to spin it. It’s a strategy that you can’t grasp because of your hatred for the man. Blinding hatred.

Agreed. I don't know if you watched the MSNBC video that The Barbarian linked in post 147, but it does show their lack of understanding and their extreme bias. (very extreme bias)

Even some of his media cheerleaders are now criticizing him.

Yip. And they are probably better to watch than MSNBC. They are coming from the view that no one knows what will happen with this trade war. It may work out, and it may not. But continuing to do the same thing over and over and increasing debt, and losing manufacturing was not the way. So, something had to be done. Trump does have a plan (unlike what MSNBC says), but his plan may or may not work out.

So, maybe start watching Ben Shapiro or even someone like Dr Phil, as he often gives a view that he is not sure if this will work, but something had to be done. Also, watch the press briefings.

 

[The Barbarian]

They had God rebuking them. Trump says he doesn't need to ask God for forgiveness. That's a major tip-off right away. Everyone has to serve someone. But in Trump's case, it's not God.

I do agree that he said that.

This is clearly not something any Christian would say, if he was in his right mind.

In saying this, God still appoints leaders.

God did not vote in 2016, or 2020, or 2024. Even if He did, I don't think that He changes His mind. Eternal, you know.

China was never known as a country that had great innovation

Ships with bulkheads, gunpowder, compass, movable type printing, paper, ... (long list). But this has nothing to do with the fact that they played Trump and easily forced him to back down on his tariffs.

(regarding U.S. economy)

1Tonne said:
It is a mess. It has been in a downward spiral for 40-odd years.

Hmmm...

I don't see a spiral there.

Stop printing off money, and you will see a downward spiral.

Constant prices... adjusted for inflation. Thought you knew.

You've actually helped a great deal in illuminating things in this discussion. When people discuss disagreements, it's rare that either of them get 100% of what they where hoping for, in the way the discussion proceeds. But I think this one brought up a number of important issues and facts concerning them. A good result, I think.

My main goal for the thread was that people think more before speaking what they have read or seen.

You put out your best argument, and so did I. It's a pretty good comparison. As you know, I track everything from Huff Post to WND and lots of things in between, to winnow out the spin. I hope you will choose to watch a wider variety of media now.

(re: "Crabby old white guy"}
I find that it helps a lot if I can laugh at myself and not take myself too seriously. Maybe that's true for all of us.

I am not a "Crabby Old Man".

You sound to be a lot younger than I am, after all. I think that, if you had lived through more history, it might have given you some perspective.

I don't agree with your assertion that economists don't understand how tariffs work. It's been tried before. That perspective of history thing, I suppose. But I wasn't alive when Hawley-Smoot was passed; I just spent some time learning about the effects of tariffs, including historical data.

Trump does have a plan (unlike what MSNBC says), but his plan may or may not work out.

My old commander used to say that any plan will work if you hold to it. That's an exaggeration, but no plan will work if you keep waffling as Trump has done.

So, maybe start watching Ben Shapiro or even someone like Dr Phil

Shapiro is not happy with Trump over his $400 million bribe from Qatar. "Dr." Phil actually hasn't had a license to practice for 19 years. He's not a real therapist; he just plays one on television.

 

[1Tonne]

They had God rebuking them. Trump says he doesn't need to ask God for forgiveness. That's a major tip-off right away. Everyone has to serve someone. But in Trump's case, it's not God.

Saul also did not honour God. He put himself first. (Trump may be like this, too.) But David understood that he was still to honour the person God had put in authority over him. Even when that person wanted to kill him. David did not want to touch the person that God had chosen.

This is clearly not something any Christian would say, if he was in his right mind.

I don't think Trump is a Christian. Maybe he is. Maybe he isn't. That does not matter. We should still watch what we say against someone who God put in place.

God did not vote in 2016, or 2020, or 2024. Even if He did, I don't think that He changes His mind. Eternal, you know.

Are you saying that God is incapable of working his way in an election? Of course he can.
Romans 13:1 (ESV):
"Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God."
By saying that God did not institute Trump into place makes God into a liar. We should believe what His word says.

I don't see a spiral there.

Do not put your head in the sand regarding the increasing debt.

You put out your best argument, and so did I. It's a pretty good comparison.

You put out arguments to discredit someone. I did not want to argue whether Trump is good or not. This is not the intent of the original post.
The original post is about introspection. So, judging yourself. But you have turned it into a slinging match to defame and judge another person.
So, no comparison there.

You sound to be a lot younger than I am

I have lived long enough. In fact, it looks like the current vice president, who is much younger than I, has enough of a perspective to be second in command of the entire US. Being old does not always equate to being wise.
Sometimes, your perspective can be skewed the older you get. Especially when you look at a lot of media from one perspective.

Shapiro is not happy with Trump over his $400 million bribe from Qatar.

Shapiro has been an advocate for Trump in the past, but he will also say when he does not like something or if he is unsure of something. So, he is less bias than many and is worth listening to. Much of what he has to say, I would agree with, even when it is against Trump.

"Dr." Phil actually hasn't had a license to practice for 19 years. He's not a real therapist; he just plays one on television.

I don't care if he has an up-to-date license or not. (He does not need to practise anymore because he was intelligent enough to make millions. Why would he go back to being a Dr? LOL)
He is very similar to Shapiro in the fact that he will give his honest opinion, whether it's for or against Trump. His opinion is not as slanted as some of the media channels and he speaks in a way that everyone can understand.

 

[The Barbarian]

Saul also did not honour God. He put himself first. (Trump may be like this, too.) But David understood that he was still to honour the person God had put in authority over him. Even when that person wanted to kill him. David did not want to touch the person that God had chosen.

God picked Saul. The voters picked Trump and Biden. So there's your difference.

We should still watch what we say against someone who God put in place.

God didn't vote in the last few elections.

Do not put your head in the sand regarding the increasing debt.

Yes, but it seems that even congressional republicans are now reluctant to let Trump do this.
You put out your best argument, and so did I. It's a pretty good comparison.

You put out arguments to discredit someone.

Facts matter. No point in denial.

I have lived long enough. In fact, it looks like the current vice president, who is much younger than I, has enough of a perspective to be second in command of the entire US. Being old does not always equate to being wise.

A lot of Americans are just realizing this...

Trump, April 2: Hillary wanted to put up wind. Wind. If you have a windmill anywhere near your house, congratulations, your house just went down 75 percent in value. And they say the noise causes cancer, you tell me that one, okay?

Shapiro is not happy with Trump over his $400 million bribe from Qatar.

Shapiro has been an advocate for Trump in the past

Yes, but the bribe was just more than even he could tolerate.

"Dr." Phil actually hasn't had a license to practice for 19 years. He's not a real therapist; he just plays one on television.

I don't care if he has an up-to-date license or not.

 

[1Tonne]

God picked Saul. The voters picked Trump and Biden. So there's your difference.

God didn't vote in the last few elections.

Romans 13:1 (ESV):
"Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God."
By saying that God did not put Trump in place makes God into a liar. We should believe what His word says.
In the Bible, they even cast lots, believing God was behind the result. God's word says that those in authority He has instituted. He can easily work in an election as well as through casting lots.
This may be part of your issue. You do not mind defaming someone that God has put in place because you do not respect or believe what the bible says. You do not value God's word as much as you think. You believe that God is not capable of putting a leader in place with an election, even though the bible says that God has put them there.

You put out your best argument, and so did I. It's a pretty good comparison.

I understand that your argument is to defame someone that God has put in place. My argument is that we should be careful what we say. Once again, there is no real comparison.

Shapiro is not happy with Trump over his $400 million bribe from Qatar.

I am glad that you are looking at more than just MSNBC now. Keep watching him as he will often give praise where praise is due. Much of this, too, is opinion, but he tries to be honest without a strong bias.

Yes, but the bribe was just more than even he could tolerate.

Some say a bribe, but many say a gift. Often, leaders will give other leaders gifts when they visit. This is tradition.

 

[The Barbarian]

Romans 13:1 (ESV):
"Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God."

The governing authority in America is the Constitution. Trump is subject to us, not us to him.

I understand that your argument is to defame someone that God has put in place.

Sorry, God didn't vote in the last few elections. He put the Constitution in power in America, not Trump.

By saying that God did not put Trump in place makes God into a liar.

No. It doesn't even make you a liar. It merely means you are completely wrong.

I am glad that you are looking at more than just MSNBC now.

As I told you, I look at pretty much everything from far-left to far-right. If you did that, you'd be a lot harder to fool. Just saying.

Some say a bribe, but many say a gift.

That's what a bribe is, when it's given to someone with the power to do you a favor.

 

[1Tonne]

The governing authority in America is the Constitution. Trump is subject to us, not us to him.

Like I said, that is why you will defame a leader, because you do not believe the bible.
I think this is a good point to bail out of this conversation now, as we have come down to the root cause of the issue.
Blessings and I hope this has made you think about what you say in future conversations.

 

[The Barbarian]

Like I said, that is why you will defame a leader

It's not defamation, if it's true. Feel free to show that I've said something untrue about him.

I think this is a good point to bail out of this conversation now,

Probably so. Facts are annoying things, sometimes. But they are facts.

Blessings and I hope this has made you think about what you say in future conversations.

To you also. It's always good for us to keep that in mind. The problem is, the people who need it the most, so rarely think it applies to them.

 

[rebornfree]

I think the bias works both ways. Some people don't like everything that Trump is doing. To critique those actions is not necessarily hate speech, but concern over the policies.