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Astronomers should be sued for false advertizing. (2)

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...Snipped off topic stuff about the redness of the Sun at sunset....
Additionally and most seriously, Santilli has apparently proved the dismissal by Hubble, Zwicky, and De Broglie, of the expansion of the universe because its "acceleration" implies a return to the middle ages with Earth mandated at the center of the universe.
I do hope that you are misinterpreting Santilli because that would make him really ignorant :p!
The expansion of the universe makes every point in the universe the center of the universe.

Some of Santilli's ideas have been addressed in the JREF forum, e.g. this post by ben m:
I can comment on the Santilli paper. First, some structural comments. This journal---the open astronomy journal---came up in another thread. ( How did crackpot Electric Universe papers get published in a peer-reviewed journal? - JREF Forum ) It was a sort of auto-pilot journal; Santilli's crackpot buddies volunteered for the editorial job; and used that position to publish crackpot science. I pointed this out to their one non-crackpot "honorary editor", who immediately quit; a few months later the other non-Santilliite editors vanished; and a few months later the published killed the journal. Santilli himself? Well, he's known for being litigious, so I can't tell you about his science reputation. The "Institute for Basic Research" is not Santilli's employer, but rather is a mailbox at Santilli's home.

OK, the paper itself.
...basically that Santilli seems ignorant about the existing physics so makes it all done via an aether...

jgold, I suggest that you read the Wikipedia article about Ruggero Santilli. If you see someone publishing in journals that they founded and are chief editor then you have to suspect that their work would not pass peer-review in the established journals. When they resort to litigation as a form of scientific debate then you have to start thinking about the word crank.
 
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jgold, If you think that the observations about the reddening of light from the Sun are credible then you need to read more of the JREF discussion
The benchtop "experiment" Santilli discusses would not get a passing grade in my undergraduate lab class. He shows no understanding of calibration; he makes no attempt to check for systematic errors, nor indeed does he appear to be familiar with the concept. West and Amato do the same thing; it looks like a high-school science fair project, and the data are not convincing.

They're triple-extra nonconvincing because of three hundred years of spectroscopy, all performed from the Earth's surface, which draws the opposite conclusion.

West points a cheapo spectrometer at the Sun and thinks he sees the lines move around? Well, solar physicists have been doing this for 200 years, starting with Fraunhofer; they do it using professionally-calibrated, temperature-stabilized instruments with 1000x the resolution of Santilli's; and no one sees this effect.
and from a later post
I did sort of repeat the experiment. The National Solar Observatory takes spectra of the sun using several really very good spectrographs. These spectrographs perform exactly the same experiment that Santilli's backyard toys did, except they're calibrated, stabilized, and kept free of instrumental errors by a professional team of instrument builders. I paged through as much Kitt Peak/ SOLIS data as I had patience for, including data taken at all times of day, and there's no shift.

This is something that you could do yourself, jgold.
 
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Brillouin scattering is due to refraction, something that will not occur in intergalactic plasma due to the lack of density. Also, Brillouin scattering involves phonons, not electrons, and it causes scattering back to the light source. If you are looking to Brillouin scattering to save the day you are on a fool's errand.
The more fundamental reason why Brillouin scattering cannot cause cosmological redshift is because the change in frequency that happens is wavelength dependent, i.e. is not a redshift!
Brillouin Spectroscopy - Mechanism
The frequency and path of the scattered light differ from those of the incident light. The magnitude of the photon frequency shift (ωB, Brillouin shift) depends on the wave length of the incident light (λ0), the refractive index (n) of the sample, the angle θ between incident and scattered light, and the phase velocity of the acoustic wave; ...

The Brillouin shift need not even be a redshift (see above).
Brillouin scattering requires interaction with phonons, magnons or some other quasi-particle. Quasi-particles do not appear in normal plasmas where there are no "time-dependent optical density variations".
 
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Michael

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I don't know, but I think both jgold and michael seem to have given up in this thread, RC...

The paths of photons are random - but coordinated

Not even close, although I have given pretty much given up on RC. :) FYI, January is typically the busiest time of the year for me at work, and with the payroll changes this year, it's been exceptionally busy this year. While that's quite good for me financially, it has put serious constraints on my time.

www.geo.mtu.edu/~scarn/teaching/GE4250/scattering_lecture.ppt
http://web.eng.fiu.edu/wangc/EMA6518-2.pdf

The reading I've done thus far would suggest that the forward momentum scattering process actually shows up as a forward diffraction "peak" in the scattering output (see page 21 of the PPT presentation).

More importantly, these types of scattering processes tend to be very "small angle" deflections (if any). I'm still studying the whole range of scattering options at this point, but already I'm finding multiple sources of evidence that suggest that light *does* scatter in a forward direction, and it *does* create peaks in the scattering output in the direction of the photon. It also *does* seem that various photons operate in *unison* (quantum entanglement?) when traversing a medium, not necessarily as individualized particles.

It seems to be quite a broad topic with much for me to learn. I haven't forgotten the conversation, it's just not my highest priority at the moment. :)
 
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Michael

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Please examine the summary of a decade or so of studies by R.M. Santilli (See his CV: world-lecture-series.org/santilli-cv ) establishing that the redness of the sun at the horizon is due to an apparent new mechanism for direct sunlight losing energy to a cold medium (or gaining energy in the case of a hot medium.) I feel that Prof. Santilli is correct with his mechanisms and am looking for additional comments to point out any holes.

You'll have to bear with me a bit longer. Things will slow down at work by late next week, but at the moment I'm just up to my ears in programming projects. I am interested in the experiments he did with sunlight. That's very interesting indeed, particularly since the background temperature of the universe is also thought to be a normal kinetic energy feature of scattering in PC theory. :)
 
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Elendur

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It seems like they're talking about a very small scale. This doesn't address how the photons would align themselves either, just that they're somehow interacting.
However, this looks like something to me.

Not even close, although I have given pretty much given up on RC. :) FYI, January is typically the busiest time of the year for me at work, and with the payroll changes this year, it's been exceptionally busy this year. While that's quite good for me financially, it has put serious constraints on my time.
:thumbsup:

I can't open the first link, since I don't have the program required (and don't really feel like getting it).

Interestingly enough the second link defined forward scattering with this:
"Inelastic scattering is almost always incoherent and relatively low angle (<1º) forward scattering."
Which isn't close to small enough angle, as discussed before.

Page 20 of 35 has two interesting pictures but they're showing (quite clearly) that the scale is to small.

The reading I've done thus far would suggest that the forward momentum scattering process actually shows up as a forward diffraction "peak" in the scattering output (see page 21 of the PPT presentation).
What was their forward diffraction defined as? If the angle was in comparison with the pdf...

More importantly, these types of scattering processes tend to be very "small angle" deflections (if any). I'm still studying the whole range of scattering options at this point, but already I'm finding multiple sources of evidence that suggest that light *does* scatter in a forward direction, and it *does* create peaks in the scattering output in the direction of the photon. It also *does* seem that various photons operate in *unison* (quantum entanglement?) when traversing a medium, not necessarily as individualized particles.
Have you found any evidence that would put them 'back on track'? It doesn't matter how small the scatterings are (with the exceptions of very, very, very small ones) if they're not 'put back on track'.

It seems to me that the scale discussed is too small to be of use when comparing. Of course, if you do find something useful, great.

It seems to be quite a broad topic with much for me to learn. I haven't forgotten the conversation, it's just not my highest priority at the moment. :)
:thumbsup:
 
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Michael

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It seems like they're talking about a very small scale. This doesn't address how the photons would align themselves either, just that they're somehow interacting.
However, this looks like something to me.

Me too. It also makes sense because the light does begin it's travel in a wave. I'd guess there's some sort of quantum entanglement process going on.

I'll try to pull out the images that would be useful after work and post a link for you. Suffice to say it's not a smooth scattering process, there's a "spike" (more like a cone) in the front where you expect due to the kinetic energy of moving photon. Apparently a significant number of the deflections take place in that small cone in the front at relatively small scattering angles.

FYI, I still have fluorescence scattering to look into, and I've only scratched the surface of various scattering processes. I'm probably going to have to break down and buy (and read) a real textbook on this topic. :)

Have you found any evidence that would put them 'back on track'? It doesn't matter how small the scatterings are (with the exceptions of very, very, very small ones) if they're not 'put back on track'.

That first article suggests that the wave seems to influence the movement of individual photons, possible providing a mechanism to put it 'back on track'? I really can't say just yet.

What I can say however is that it is *utterly impossible* for scattering to *not* occur, and it therefore would be impossible for redshift to not occur.

It's very clear at this point that I still have a lot of material to read through before I even start to understand all the ramifications of these various scattering processes. :)
 
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Elendur

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Me too. It also makes sense because the light does begin it's travel in a wave. I'd guess there's some sort of quantum entanglement process going on.

I'll try to pull out the images that would be useful after work and post a link for you. Suffice to say it's not a smooth scattering process, there's a "spike" (more like a cone) in the front where you expect due to the kinetic energy of moving photon. Apparently a significant number of the deflections take place in that small cone in the front at relatively small scattering angles.

FYI, I still have fluorescence scattering to look into, and I've only scratched the surface of various scattering processes. I'm probably going to have to break down and buy (and read) a real textbook on this topic. :)



That first article suggests that the wave seems to influence the movement of individual photons, possible providing a mechanism to put it 'back on track'? I really can't say just yet.

What I can say however is that it is *utterly impossible* for scattering to *not* occur, and it therefore would be impossible for redshift to not occur.

It's very clear at this point that I still have a lot of material to read through before I even start to understand all the ramifications of these various scattering processes. :)
I'll wait and see if you get any results, to me it looks as if the scale is too small.
 
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Michael

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...Snipped off topic stuff about the redness of the Sun at sunset....

Apparently you use the same denial and insult method of debate in *every* debate, regardless of the topic, and irrespective of the individual you insult. Typical hater mentality.

FYI, it *cannot* be "off topic" since it's the whole basis of his argument. Since you refuse to even consider the argument, you deny the importance of the data itself! Wow!

I do hope that you are misinterpreting Santilli because that would make him really ignorant :p!
I'll bet you use that same ad hom approach in every conversation, with every individual. It seems to be your one claim to fame. You personally insult the individual in every post while ignoring the scientific argument entirely.

The expansion of the universe makes every point in the universe the center of the universe.
Objects can expand but only at C. Mystical "space" has never "expanded" in a lab, and therefore it's unrelated to photon redshift.

Some of Santilli's ideas have been addressed in the JREF forum, e.g. this post by ben m:
In typical hater style, ben m attacked the individual and ignored the data and scientific argument entirely. That seems to be a common theme among haters, regardless of the topic.

I still haven't seen anyone debate his *SCIENTIFIC POINTS*! Why is that? You guys are doing more to interest me in Santilli's work than anything else. Do any of you have any valid *scientific* arguments against his work?
 
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Loudmouth

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Mystical "space" has never "expanded" in a lab, and therefore it's unrelated to photon redshift.

We have never had a supernova in the lab, therefore they don't exist.

Your obsession with the lab is noted, but it is unrelated to how science is actually done. All of nature is the laboratory, and if we find evidence of expansion in the data then that is the same as measuring expansion within man made walls.

I still haven't seen anyone debate his *SCIENTIFIC POINTS*! Why is that? You guys are doing more to interest me in Santilli's work than anything else. Do any of you have any valid *scientific* arguments against his work?

Then look at Santilli's work. At least we could talk about something else that you are wrong about. ;) (sarcasm intended in case it isn't obvious)
 
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Michael

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We have never had a supernova in the lab, therefore they don't exist.

Things explode in the lab and on Earth. I'm sure they explode in space too.

Your obsession with the lab is noted, but it is unrelated to how science is actually done.
Actually that's not true for any other branch of science. Only astronomers "make up" things that defy any mechanism of lab testing.

All of nature is the laboratory,
I'd buy that basic argument by the way.

and if we find evidence of expansion in the data then that is the same as measuring expansion within man made walls.
But you didn't find any evidence of expansion, just "redshift". It's your *interpretation* of the data I question, not the data itself.

Then look at Santilli's work. At least we could talk about something else that you are wrong about. ;) (sarcasm intended in case it isn't obvious)
Ok. :)
 
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Loudmouth

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Things explode in the lab and on Earth. I'm sure they explode in space too.

Stars do not explode in the lab, therefore they do not exist. That is the logic of your argument. If it doesn't happen within the confines of man made walls then it can't happen anywhere else on any other scale.

Actually that's not true for any other branch of science. Only astronomers "make up" things that defy any mechanism of lab testing.

What is being defied? What experiment run in any lab has had the accuracy and sensitivty to measure the expansion of space and has come up empty?

But you didn't find any evidence of expansion, just "redshift".

Redshift IS THE EVIDENCE.

Expansion will produce redshift that correlates with distance without blurring. This is something that plasma redshift can not do, but expansion can. We also observe time dilation effects for highly redshifted supernova, again an effect that plasma redshift can not produce.

It's your *interpretation* of the data I question, not the data itself.

Then how should the data be different if expansion were the real cause of redshift? Please tell us.
 
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Michael

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Stars do not explode in the lab, therefore they do not exist. That is the logic of your argument. If it doesn't happen within the confines of man made walls then it can't happen anywhere else on any other scale.

The fact of the matter is that I doubt that astronomers even correctly understand what a star *is* to begin with. On the other hand, even *thermonuclear* things have exploded in the lab and on Earth. I therefore have no doubt such energy releases take place in space, on scales that I could not even test on Earth.

What is being defied? What experiment run in any lab has had the accuracy and sensitivty to measure the expansion of space and has come up empty?
You can't even *physically* (rather than metaphysically) define the term "space" in the first place. *What* physical thing 'expands' in "space"? The whole concept reeks of an aether theory. Are you proposing an expandable aether called "space", or what?

Redshift IS THE EVIDENCE.
No it's not evidence of anything but Doppler (movement of object) shift and inelastic scattering of photons as they run into plasma and EM and temperature variations in space. Brillioun scattering ring a bell?

Expansion will produce redshift that correlates with distance without blurring.
That's fine as long as space was a real "vacuum" rather than a thin plasma, and you weren't claiming objects expand faster than C!

This is something that plasma redshift can not do, but expansion can.
How do you explain Santilli's findings? What flaw did you find in his work?

We also observe time dilation effects for highly redshifted supernova, again an effect that plasma redshift can not produce.
False. You observe *signal broadening* in a medium that isn't a "vacuum" at all. Again, light traverses a *medium* called *plasma*. Does Holushko's work ring a bell?

Then how should the data be different if expansion were the real cause of redshift? Please tell us.
I already told you that I would expect that there would be time variations between the highest energy gamma rays and other lower energy light from distant high energy events. I've provided MAGIC data to demonstrate that there is such a time delay between the highest energy gamma rays and lower energy gamma rays. Shall I dig up the article again?
 
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Loudmouth

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The fact of the matter is that I doubt that astronomers even correctly understand what a star *is* to begin with. On the other hand, even *thermonuclear* things have exploded in the lab and on Earth. I therefore have no doubt such energy releases take place in space, on scales that I could not even test on Earth.

But no stars have exploded in the lab, therefore they don't exist. That is your argument, and it is lame in the extreme.

You can't even *physically* (rather than metaphysically) define the term "space" in the first place.

"Today, the meter (m) is defined in terms of constant of nature: the length of the path traveled by the light in vacuum during a time interval of 1/299, 792, 458 of a second."
SI Units - Length

There it is.

*What* physical thing 'expands' in "space"? The whole concept reeks of an aether theory. Are you proposing an expandable aether called "space", or what?

Space is expanding. For two objects that are not gravitationally bound, they will move apart without any force being applied to them as measured over time by the length measurement given above.

No it's not evidence of anything but Doppler (movement of object) shift and inelastic scattering of photons as they run into plasma and EM and temperature variations in space. Brillioun scattering ring a bell?

That would result in blurring, which is not observed.

That's fine as long as space was a real "vacuum" rather than a thin plasma, and you weren't claiming objects expand faster than C!

Sorry, but your wishes do not trump the evidence.

How do you explain Santilli's findings? What flaw did you find in his work?

What are Santilli's findings, and why do you think they are accurate?

False. You observe *signal broadening* in a medium that isn't a "vacuum" at all. Again, light traverses a *medium* called *plasma*. Does Holushko's work ring a bell?

Holushko's work does not model plasma, as we have already discussed. Holushko invents a make believe universe with a luminiferous aether that randomly changes the speed of light. That is not the universe we live in. Our universe does not have a luminiferous aether. Also, plasma blurs light in our universe, and we do not see blurred images of distant galaxies.

I already told you that I would expect that there would be time variations between the highest energy gamma rays and other lower energy light from distant high energy events. I've provided MAGIC data to demonstrate that there is such a time delay between the highest energy gamma rays and lower energy gamma rays. Shall I dig up the article again?

Except that the delay between them was not produced in transit, but at the source.
 
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Michael

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But no stars have exploded in the lab, therefore they don't exist. That is your argument, and it is lame in the extreme.

That isn't *my* argument, that's your strawman kludged argument, and it's lame alright. ;)

Unless you're claiming stars are composed of something that doesn't exist on Earth, I don't care.

"Today, the meter (m) is defined in terms of constant of nature: the length of the path traveled by the light in vacuum during a time interval of 1/299, 792, 458 of a second."
SI Units - Length

There it is.

Meters expand in space? When was a meter put up in space to watch it "expand"? How (physically) does your meter expand?

Space is expanding.

No, it's not. Photons experience inelastic scattering in "spacetime". "Space" isn't even physically defined in GR!

For two objects that are not gravitationally bound, they will move apart without any force being applied to them as measured over time by the length measurement given above.

You mean objects in motion stay in motion? That doesn't explain the redshift.

That would result in blurring, which is not observed.

Both claims are a handwave. Blurring *is* observed in the *MOST REDSHIFTED* objects.

Sorry, but your wishes do not trump the evidence.

What evidence do you have that objects of mass move faster than C?

What are Santilli's findings, and why do you think they are accurate?

I don't even know yet because I haven't read his work. You however *assume* he's wrong. I assume you had a reason for that assumption?

Holushko's work does not model plasma, as we have already discussed.

Actually it does model the "bumpy road" created by non uniform temperatures and variable EM fields in space (kind like an aether) as well as "generic" scattering models. He was *inclusive*.

Holushko invents a make believe universe with a luminiferous aether that randomly changes the speed of light.

Brillion scattering assumes much the same thing as it relates to EM fields that vary over time and distance. What is that variable EM field if not a luminiferous aether that changes"?

That is not the universe we live in. Our universe does not have a luminiferous aether.

Define aether. You have meters made of "nothing" that somehow magically 'expand'.

Also, plasma blurs light in our universe, and we do not see blurred images of distant galaxies.

Show me the *highest* energy redshifted item you can find that isn't blurred, not the *closest* ones.

Except that the delay between them was not produced in transit, but at the source.

So you say with a handwave and no legitimate explanation for a 4 minute delay at the source.
 
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jgold

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Any explanation must also explain time dilation in heavily redshifted type Ia supernovae.

"Comparison with the observed elapsed time yields an apparent aging rate consistent with the 1/(1+z) factor (where z is the redshift) expected in a homogeneous, isotropic, expanding universe. These measurements thus confirm the expansion hypothesis, while unambiguously excluding models that predict no time dilation, such as Zwicky's "tired light" hypothesis."

[0804.3595] Time Dilation in Type Ia Supernova Spectra at High Redshift

We see this time dilation because these galaxies really are moving away from us at high speed due to expansion. Non-cosmological redshift mechanisms can not produce this type of effect.

I am sorry, but it appears you do not understand the issue.

Without any offense intended, let me try again.

The Santilli diagram terminates any plausibility of the expansion of the universe under whatever geometry thus including the dilation of time.

In fact, you can easily add the far fetched, unverifiable hypothesis of time dilation and you will still remain with the same inconsistency, namely galaxy G2 accelerates over G1 solely for Earth and not for other observers.

The time dilation jazz will only effect the rate of acceleration, also if I assume that the shoe on my right foot contains a mini black hole, I can prove anything I wish, including my being a god... :sorry:

The moral is that cosmology has gone way out of whack because of of unlimited conjectures, none of which are plausible, and none of which are verifiable on Earth. Thus it is pure jazz.


With respect to that diagram

"However, when z2 and z1 are measured from the galaxy G, we have z2 = z1 since the two galaxies are located at the same distance d2 from G, thus establishing that the galaxy G2 has no acceleration away from G1 when seen from G."

Oh...my. Just wow.

Try and think about it for second...it is space-time itself that we are saying is expanding. All of these objects are expanding away from all of the others as space expands.

The observer at E obviously sees G and G2 receding away from them, with the same redshift, and the closer galaxy, G1, with a proportionally lesser redshift - but all still receding away from them, with the acceleration proportional to distance.

But the observer at G would also logically conclude that they were at the "centre" of their universe, because they would see E with the same redshift as G1 and G2, all receding away from them with their acceleration proportional to their distance (i.e. - the same redshift for all three).

The observer at G1 would also logically conclude that they were at the "centre" of their universe, because they would see G2 and E receding away from them with their acceleration proportional to distance, and see G receding away from them with a proportionally larger acceleration given twice the distance between them.

The observer at G2 would see G and E receding away from them with a proportionally larger redshift, and G1 with a proportionally smaller redshift - but again, all three still receding directly away from G2, with acceleration proportional to distance. Again, they'd observe themselves as being at the center of the universe.

All observers in this diagram therefore quite logically see themselves at the "center" of their universe. Hubble's law works for them too, and there is no logical inconsistency. It's not hard to see why that is true.

So the diagram, far from "disproving the expansion of the universe" due to geocentric issues, actually demonstrates it.

With all due respect, I have to repeat again, again, and again that all of these "learned" explanations collapse into dust because they do not explain the acceleration of the expansion in a way equal to all observers in the universe.

Let's be more concrete, let us assume the far fetched assumption that space itself is expanding, then let's make the additional much more far fetched assumption that the expansion is proportional to the distance as a necessary condition to avoid that G2 accelerates with respect to G1.

Why don't people understand this?

Santilli's diagram clearly establishes in a final form that the conjecture of the expansion of space itself, plus the additional conjecture that the acceleration of the expansion of space is proportional to the distance.

They solely apply for observers on Earth.

Other observers in the universe will see dramatic acceleration and see redshifts which are dramatically incompatible with those measured on Earth E.

In any case, I must stress that this type of thinking is totally vacuous because it is dealing with conjecture after conjecture, while the expansion of the universe has been experimentally dismissed on Earth.

See: santilli-foundation.org/docs/IRS-confirmations-212.pdf

Therefore, we have to be honest here to separate science from fiction.

Until Santilli's IRS measurements are experimentally dismissed talking about all the conjectures is nonsense imo.
 
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Subduction Zone

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Back to the basic Doppler effect.

Does anyone deny that it we take two objects, one object moving away faster from us than the other object, both at constant speed, will the object moving away at a higher speed exhibit a higher red shift than the object moving away from us at a slower speed?
 
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Michael

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Back to the basic Doppler effect.

Does anyone deny that it we take two objects, one object moving away faster from us than the other object, both at constant speed, will the object moving away at a higher speed exhibit a higher red shift than the object moving away from us at a slower speed?

The basic Doppler effect is related to the *movement of objects*. Nobody I know of denies that objects move. Objects of mass however cannot move faster than C.
 
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