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As far as OSAS vs OSnAS - why not get back behind Wesley to the actual source?
Arminius said words to the effect that "it is not possible that a BELIEVER can lose their salvation -- but it is possible that a person can CHOOSE to CEASE BEING A 'BELIEVER'."
That is the precise answer.
One can choose to believe - and then, it is rare, - but one can choose to disbelieve.
Arminius said words to the effect that "it is not possible that a BELIEVER can lose their salvation -- but it is possible that a person can CHOOSE to CEASE BEING A 'BELIEVER'."
That is the precise answer.
One can choose to believe - and then, it is rare, - but one can choose to disbelieve.
Thank-you so much for that quote. I had not seen it before.
Interesting quote. Calvinists agree with that too.
Of course, after all, Arminius was a Calvinist; just never a 5-point tulip version. But then, John Calvin was never actually a 5-point tulip Calvinist either.
Thanks. I do enjoy reading the various replies; I'm still working through some difficult topics. And I appreciate everyone's patience. My mind is like a jigsaw puzzle; not filled in, gaps between areas. Slowly connecting. ...
I do not consider OSnAS as opposed to OSAS to be the litmus test of Arminian or Wesleyan theology. There are indeed OSAS Arminians and Wesleyans - as I said earlier, the Remonstrants after Arminius's death declared the matter "too close to call", essentially.
The litmus test, imo, is whether any person has the freedom of the will to choose to accept Christ -- as opposed to the Calvinistic idea that God decreed that this person here and that person there would be damned, no matter what, and that the human will was no factor whatsoever in who would be or could be "of the elect".
I used the phrase "freedom of the will" deliberately against Luther's phrase "the bondage of the will." Despite Luther's invaluable contributions, in error to say the will is not free.
It is not just BAPTISTS who are Calvinistic, it is also Presbyterians and Reformed. And not all Baptists are Calvinistic -- in fact, in the early days of Baptists -- there were Particular Baptists and General Baptists.
One of the CF Chaplains, drsteve, did his dissertation on the early Baptists -- and showed that the General Baptists rejected the Calvinistic ideas and YET IT WAS NOT THROUGH Arminianism that they abandoned the Calvinism -- but other sources. I read his doctoral dissertation and felt it was very fair to Arminius and Arminianism.
So since Calvinists are not going to honor the sub-forum's rules here, and are not going to go away - even though they know good and well they are not posting merely "in fellowship" but seem to indeed teach and debate against this specific faith-group (iow, exactly what the statement of purpose says should NOT happen)
- I would say then "go on, people - be as gracious and nice to them as you find yourself able."
Maybe we should start a "Wesleyan SAFE HOUSE
THREAD "
within in a sub-forum which should have been that already for the whole sub-forum
If ya haven't got a safe forum,
a safe house thread will do,
if ya haven't got a safe house thread,
than God bless you.
Maybe we should start a "Wesleyan SAFE HOUSE
THREAD "
within in a sub-forum which should have been that already for the whole sub-forum
If ya haven't got a safe forum,
a safe house thread will do,
if ya haven't got a safe house thread,
than God bless you.
thx for the link Graceseeker
and you're right Romans - they wouldn't even respect a thread
We have some responsibility there, too. If we refused to engage, then it wouldn't be worth it to argue. But, if your personality is like mine; then chances are that won't happen. I'll never refuse to answer an honest question or help someone broaden their understandings. So I continue to answer questions opening myself up to the inevitable attacks and 'gotchas' that come afterwards.
I am glad to answer honest questions. But I do eventually have my limit when someone starts trying to take the role of teaching me "the real faith."
Yes. I'm learning to embrace those limits.
And though you may not understand exactly why, I pray that you never have all those gaps filled in. May you always be seeking to know more about God than you do today, or even tomorrow.
Ok? Can we ever really fill those gaps in this life? I'm beginning to think I'll always have questions. And wear out the ? key on my keyboard.
I'm beginning to think I'll always have questions. And wear out the ? key on my keyboard.
GraceSeeker, Circuitrider, RomansFiveEight:
Was I being out of line when we were comparing Calvinism to Arminianism in this forum? I wasn't trying to convert you or tell you that you were wrong or that Wesleyan theology is wrong at all.
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