Assume you are wrong.

[sunlover1]

The Church is the Body of Christ, to reject His Church is to reject Him. Now you must have full knowledge to be held to full accountability. If anyone knew what the Catholic Church really was and left it then they would go to hell.

I left the Catholic church.

You mean to say that you believe that
The 'Catholic" church is the Body of Christ?
Or that the 'church' is the body of Christ?
Christ is the head, we, His own, are the
body, isn't that how it goes?

Otherwise, your way say's that I will go
to hell (among other things like not having
the Holy Spirit)

Please advise.

sunlover

 

[Libre]

Sunlover, this is a doctrinal issue. That is the position of the Catholic Church. I don't find it supported in the Bible itself. You have to decide. Protestants don't accept the Catholic Church as THE Body of Christ. So, we don't come under that criteria of knowing, then leaving, and going to hell. That must be a writing of one of the Church fathers, for it is not in scripture. IMO

Libre

 

[StTherese]

Just sitting here thinking.

Assume for a moment that you and your church "have it wrong." (please let's not have "it can never happen, we are right because.... posts.)

Assume that your faith in certain teachings are completely erroneous.

For example, Protestants, assume that Mary is Sinless, Perpetual virgin, etc....

Catholics, assume that she is not.

Or, it could be the communion of saints. Whatever. The dogma or teaching doesn't really matter.


but given the assumption that your church/denomination is wrong, and you discover it, who do you think has the most serious ramifications for BEING wrong?

Two scenarios spring to mind.

you discover you are wrong here, on earth, how does it affect your faith?

and second, if it is not discovered on earth, but you are standing before Christ, and have discovered the error, what do you think the ramifications for being wrong in your instance is?

Posted this in Mariology, because inevitably, that is what people will end up talking about, and they'd just have to move it anyways.

Well, if you are assuming that if Catholics are wrong about Mary that it would therefore be a sin to have a devotion to her then I believe you are wrong. For there to be sin, there must be intention. Sin is the deliberate choice to go against the will of God. To know what God wants of you, but out of selfishness, to chose ourselves over God. That being said...I do not believe there would be ramifications for believing in these Marian doctrines or having a devotion to Mary since Catholics do this to bring them to a closer understanding of Christ even (if they were wrong). The Catholic devotion to Mary and the dogmas about her are centered on Christ...so since a Catholic's intention is for a fuller knowledge of truth, what ramifications could there be for seeking truth???

 

[StTherese]

I left the Catholic church.

You mean to say that you believe that
The 'Catholic" church is the Body of Christ?
Or that the 'church' is the body of Christ?
Christ is the head, we, His own, are the
body, isn't that how it goes?

Otherwise, your way say's that I will go
to hell (among other things like not having
the Holy Spirit)

Please advise.

sunlover

Well, it is one thing to know and understand truth and then deliberately turn away from it. It is another to be unaware of the truth and go out in search of it.
Peace

 

[Rhamiel]

I left the Catholic church.

You mean to say that you believe that
The 'Catholic" church is the Body of Christ?
Or that the 'church' is the body of Christ?
Christ is the head, we, His own, are the
body, isn't that how it goes?

Otherwise, your way say's that I will go
to hell (among other things like not having
the Holy Spirit)

Please advise.

sunlover

The Catholic Church is the Body of Christ, Christ is the head of the Church, the Pope is the visable head of the Church on earth. It is not my place to judge who goes to hell, I think that many protestants are mysticly bound to the Church through there love of Christ and the ignorance of the true properties of the Church. It is not an invisable Church but a visable Church where some of the members do not know they are joined to Her.
You should reexamine The Catholic Church

 

[HisKid1973]

Boy, talk about laying a burden of guilt on someone..Christ knows who are His.Remember there are sheep and tares mixed together wherever Christ is lifted up...All true believers belong to the "one ,holy, apostolic, catholic(universal) church..not one certain physical institution..pax..kim

 

[Rhamiel]

"Well, it is one thing to know and understand truth and then deliberately turn away from it. It is another to be unaware of the truth and go out in search of it.
Peace"
True damnation would only be sure if you knew what the Church is.

 

[Rhamiel]

I am sorry, this is not ment to be a guilt trip.
And every community has good people and bad people in it, Judas was an apostle same as Peter.

 

[HisKid1973]

True damnation would only be sure if you knew what the Church is.[/FONT]

You are correct, those who reject Christ will be doomed, those who belong to the church(ekklesia=called out ones..ie.
those who put their trust in Christ will receive eternal life..pax..Kim

 

[sunlover1]

You should reexamine The Catholic Church

Unfortunately, the answers can be
somewhat ambiguous.
As in this very question.

I started here wondering what had drawn
my friend to catholicism.
That's what I'm looking for.

Ever optimistic,
sunlover

 

[Rhamiel]

"one ,holy, apostolic, catholic(universal) church..not one certain physical institution..pax..kim"
But Jesus had a physical institution, he had desiples and a group of apostles to lead them, and it was the apostles who would lay hands on others, and then Judas was replaced with Jude, and Paul became an apostle. It looks like an institution to me

 

[HisKid1973]

"one ,holy, apostolic, catholic(universal) church..not one certain physical institution..pax..kim"
But Jesus had a physical institution, he had desiples and a group of apostles to lead them, and it was the apostles who would lay hands on others, and then Judas was replaced with Jude, and Paul became an apostle. It looks like an institution to me

Yes is manifested in a tangible way and churches sprang up all over..At one point a large population was underground as the church is today with the church in China being mostly underground..His body still provides a light in this dark world..Also remember His kingdom is not of this world. and all true believers in Christ are living stones built upon the foundation with Christ as the cornerstone and the twelve apostles completing the rest of the foundation..pax..Kim

 

[repentant]

"one ,holy, apostolic, catholic(universal) church..not one certain physical institution..pax..kim"
But Jesus had a physical institution, he had desiples and a group of apostles to lead them, and it was the apostles who would lay hands on others, and then Judas was replaced with Jude, and Paul became an apostle. It looks like an institution to me

You mean Matthias..

 

[Uphill Battle]

"one ,holy, apostolic, catholic(universal) church..not one certain physical institution..pax..kim"
But Jesus had a physical institution, he had desiples and a group of apostles to lead them, and it was the apostles who would lay hands on others, and then Judas was replaced with Jude, and Paul became an apostle. It looks like an institution to me

Jesus had an institution? Weird....

I never saw a corporate body in the entire gospels in relation to Jesus. Jesus had his diciples. They held to no denomination, no Church (such as the RCC) what they did hold to was Christ.

What Christ said is that he would build his Ekklesia, his group of believers, which is not a corporate institution of any kind.

Roman Catholicism took the name for themselves, the catholic church, or the universial church, applied it to themselves, and claimed that they were IT. the true catholic, or universal church, is not the RCC. the RCC is but a part of the true catholic church.

 

[ScottBot]

Jesus had an institution? Weird....

I never saw a corporate body in the entire gospels in relation to Jesus. Jesus had his diciples. They held to no denomination, no Church (such as the RCC) what they did hold to was Christ.

What Christ said is that he would build his Ekklesia, his group of believers, which is not a corporate institution of any kind.

Roman Catholicism took the name for themselves, the catholic church, or the universial church, applied it to themselves, and claimed that they were IT. the true catholic, or universal church, is not the RCC. the RCC is but a part of the true catholic church.

You're right!!!! There were no denominations!!! There was only ONE CHURCH held together by ONE FAITH and united in ONE BAPTISM in ONE LORD, who is God and Father over all, and through all, and in all.

The Catholic Church took the name WAY before you claim it did. It was called that by St. Ignatius of Antioch in 107 AD, and even then it was considered a familiar term. The name "Roman Catholic" really took hold when Martin Luther used it in his consternation. The official name of the church is simply "Catholic Church".

 

[Uphill Battle]

You're right!!!! There were no denominations!!! There was only ONE CHURCH held together by ONE FAITH and united in ONE BAPTISM in ONE LORD, who is God and Father over all, and through all, and in all.

The Catholic Church took the name WAY before you claim it did. It was called that by St. Ignatius of Antioch in 107 AD, and even then it was considered a familiar term. The name "Roman Catholic" really took hold when Martin Luther used it in his consternation. The official name of the church is simply "Catholic Church".

I don't deny that the church was called catholic from very very early. However, first you must recognize that church doesn't mean one institution. Ekklesia doesn't actually mean church, that's a transliteration. catholic was used descriptively, however, and not as an official title, as in the church (body of believers, not an institution) of Jesus is a catholic (universal) church(body of believers, not an institution). Taking it as a title reduced it's meaning, frankly, and lays claim to something that doesn't belong to any one institution.

 

[ScottBot]

I don't deny that the church was called catholic from very very early. However, first you must recognize that church doesn't mean one institution. Ekklesia doesn't actually mean church, that's a transliteration. catholic was used descriptively, however, and not as an official title, as in the church (body of believers, not an institution) of Jesus is a catholic (universal) church(body of believers, not an institution). Taking it as a title reduced it's meaning, frankly, and lays claim to something that doesn't belong to any one institution.

The only problem in your assumption is that Ignatius said "η καθολική εκκλησία" (the Catholic Church). In the Greek, the catholic church is used in the definitive, meaning it was a clearly identifiable thing.

"Let no one do anything of concern to the Church without the bishop. Let that be considered a valid Eucharist which is celebrated by the bishop or by one whom he ordains [i.e., a presbyter]. Wherever the bishop appears, let the people be there; just as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church" (Letter to the Smyrneans 8:2 [A.D. 110]).

 

[Uphill Battle]

The only problem in your assumption is that Ignatius said "η καθολική εκκλησία" (the Catholic Church). In the Greek, the catholic church is used in the definitive, meaning it was a clearly identifiable thing.

what makes you think the universal body of believers would not be a clearly identifiable thing, apart from an institution?

What he said, in direct translation, is The Universal Called out Assembly.

That is a far cry from the Institutional Catholic Church.

If you are looking for the word "church" as in institution/building, you should be looking for Kuriokos. not Ekklesia.

 

[ScottBot]

what makes you think the universal body of believers would not be a clearly identifiable thing, apart from an institution?

What he said, in direct translation, is The Universal Called out Assembly.

That is a far cry from the Institutional Catholic Church.

If you are looking for the word "church" as in institution/building, you should be looking for Kuriokos. not Ekklesia.

Do you know what Greek people say when they are going to church?

 

[Uphill Battle]

Do you know what Greek people say when they are going to church?

likely Ekklesia. the transliteration has been around for a loooong time.