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Assume you are wrong.

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sunlover1

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People disagree about doctrines and things. We won't find out who is right til we meet God face to face.
Or if we read what He told us ;)
 
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ScottBot

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Just sitting here thinking.

Assume for a moment that you and your church "have it wrong." (please let's not have "it can never happen, we are right because.... posts.)

Assume that your faith in certain teachings are completely erroneous.

For example, Protestants, assume that Mary is Sinless, Perpetual virgin, etc....

Catholics, assume that she is not.

Or, it could be the communion of saints. Whatever. The dogma or teaching doesn't really matter.


but given the assumption that your church/denomination is wrong, and you discover it, who do you think has the most serious ramifications for BEING wrong?

Two scenarios spring to mind.

you discover you are wrong here, on earth, how does it affect your faith?

and second, if it is not discovered on earth, but you are standing before Christ, and have discovered the error, what do you think the ramifications for being wrong in your instance is?

Posted this in Mariology, because inevitably, that is what people will end up talking about, and they'd just have to move it anyways.
There's something about Mary.

^_^


Sorry, I couldn't help it.
 
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jesusfreak220

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I don't think any of the smaller things, all the little rules, the little beliefs that are offshoots of the main ideas, really matter much in the end. I think that in the end what matters is that you believe the Bible is the Word of God, that it's all true 100% b/c God can't lie and thus it must be true, that Jesus is the Messiah, is the Son of God, is God, and is the only way to Heaven. If you truly believe all this, you'll do your best to live to please Him and this means also being a "good person" by the world's standards, all the good works that a large number of people believe can get you to Heaven. Also, you've gotta believe that all men have sinned (and I use men to mean all humans), that the wages of sin is death, that Christ died to pay for our sins and then rose again-conquering death. That's all that really matters, isn't it?
 
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ScottBot

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I don't think any of the smaller things, all the little rules, the little beliefs that are offshoots of the main ideas, really matter much in the end. I think that in the end what matters is that you believe the Bible is the Word of God, that it's all true 100% b/c God can't lie and thus it must be true, that Jesus is the Messiah, is the Son of God, is God, and is the only way to Heaven. If you truly believe all this, you'll do your best to live to please Him and this means also being a "good person" by the world's standards, all the good works that a large number of people believe can get you to Heaven. Also, you've gotta believe that all men have sinned (and I use men to mean all humans), that the wages of sin is death, that Christ died to pay for our sins and then rose again-conquering death. That's all that really matters, isn't it?
What if there's more to it than that?
 
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B16uRock

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'For it is through Christ's Catholic Church alone, which is the universal help toward salvation, that the fullness of the means of salvation can be obtained.'" Pg. 215, #816

#846 is titled "outside the church there is no salvation"

#862 talking of the position of pope..."the bishops have by divine institutuiontaken the place of the apostles as pastorsof the Church, in such wise that whoever listens to them listens to Christ and whoever despises them despises Christand him who sent Christ"

There is alot of pulling out of context, that occurs on some of these thread, dealing with Catholicism. The result is a misunderstanding of what The Church actually teaches.

Those quotes from the CCC, when presented alone, does not explain, the full teachings, on how the Church views Christians that are outside of Catholicism. It is so easy, for one who makes claims, that we don't believe those who are not Catholic are saved, to use these quotes to support their claims.

However, in other places of the CCC, there are quotes that explain, just how the Church defines the Mystical Body of Christ, and it's members.

It is important, to understand; that we Catholics have a different concept, of the Body of Christ. We don't believe The Body of Christ, to be a spiritual body of Christ, united by common believers. We believe that the Church and her members, is the Mystical Body of Christ. with Christ as the Head.

Membership, into the Body of Christ, does not include only Catholics, people are brought into this membership, by their baptism. It is thru baptism, that we (Protestant and Catholic) have a sacramental bond of unity, although not in full communion.

Now, someone still might have a problem, with the explanation that I just gave, and not agree with it, however you can see, that the Church doesn't teach, everyone has to be a Catholic, inorder to obtain salvation. We are all made members, thru our baptism, into the Mystical Body of Christ, with Christ as Her Head. ----The Church. So when it reads, that those outside of the Church, there is no salvation, it is referring to non-christians.
From the CCC.

The sacramental bond of the unity of Christians
1271 Baptism constitutes the foundation of communion among all Christians, including those who are not yet in full communion with the Catholic Church: "For men who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in some, though imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church. Justified by faith in Baptism, [they] are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers by the children of the Catholic Church."81 "Baptism therefore constitutes the sacramental bond of unity existing among all who through it are reborn."82
An indelible spiritual mark . . .

1272 Incorporated into Christ by Baptism, the person baptized is configured to Christ. Baptism seals the Christian with the indelible spiritual mark (character) of his belonging to Christ. No sin can erase this mark, even if sin prevents Baptism from bearing the fruits of salvation.83 Given once for all, Baptism cannot be repeated.

1273 Incorporated into the Church by Baptism, the faithful have received the sacramental character that consecrates them for Christian religious worship.84 The baptismal seal enables and commits Christians to serve God by a vital participation in the holy liturgy of the Church and to exercise their baptismal priesthood by the witness of holy lives and practical charity.85
1274 The Holy Spirit has marked us with the seal of the Lord ("Dominicus character") "for the day of redemption."86 "Baptism indeed is the seal of eternal life."87 The faithful Christian who has "kept the seal" until the end, remaining faithful to the demands of his Baptism, will be able to depart this life "marked with the sign of faith,"88 with his baptismal faith, in expectation of the blessed vision of God - the consummation of faith - and in the hope of resurrection.
 
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Rhamiel

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Once again Uphill you have made a very interesting thread, I am a bit ashamed of my answer but not my reasoning behind it.

Well if I woke up one day and everything just clicked “The Marian Dogmas were made up in the middle ages to better control people, the Roman Church is like any other business, sell people what they want, all of these things are innovations and have no root in the Bible.” Well then I would stop believing in that Mary could hear my prayers, I would stop believing in the infallibility of the Church, since I would no longer think God cept the Church free of error I would not trust the scripture that the Catholic Church compiled and hand copied until the printing pres was invented, I would also stop believing in the Divinity of Jesus Christ and would end up a deist who relied upon Roman Stoicism as my main worldview and ethical and moral leader.

Now if I was before Jesus and He told me these were not true things about His mother, well I would be surprised but no big deal in the long run. He knows my beliefs about His mother are not founded on my pride or greed but out of love and honor of Him.

On another note setmeonfire
"lord god the pope", "vicarius filii dei"(vicar/"one who stands in place of" christ)”
Never have we called the Pope “lord god” and I am sure that vicarious filii dei, is not a title of the Pope, it is the Vicar of Christ, while we believe that Jesus uses the Church as an instrument to save people, that many protestants will be saved by God through His Church, though this is a mystery to me how it will be done. God knows His own, if you really love Him He knows that.
Yes the word Pope is never in the Bible, but it is not some huge invisible egalitarian blob. The Church has Apostles set up by Christ and disciples. He gave us apostles (now called bishops) to lead us. Because there are false prophets and false spirits out there, would He not give us thing we can rest on. I know you will say he gave us scripture, and He did it is great, but the same bible was used by like a dozen cult leaders in the past 100 years alone to lead people away from Him.
The words of the Bible can be twisted, false spirits from hell masquerade as the The Spirit, there are a million conmen out there and we have our own flawed natures to contended with, an infallible Church sounds like what a merciful God would do, He would not leave His children to the wolves.
 
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NewToLife

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I think the problem with arguing that the little things dont matter is that small errors behave like viruses, they tend to generate further and more serious errors which people then transmit to others who generate even more errors.

For instance, someone might be uncomfortable with the term Mother of God, this on the surface isnt a big thing. The problem is that the rejection of that title often leads onto serious errors in Christology which then generate further errors right throughout the belief system.

Try telling the family of the patient who just died from an MRSA or VRSA infection that the little things like making sure wards are kept thoroughly clean or staff always wash their hands dont really matter. If its critical when physical life is at stake how much more so when eternal life is at stake?
 
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setmeonfire

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"He knows my beliefs about His mother are not founded on my pride or greed but out of love and honor of Him."

thats good, but remember that 1john 2:4-5 says obey the word to show you love him. nowhere in the word is there SOLID prove to back up mariology. if christ or his apostles didnt say word for word pray to mary medetrix our benefactress, im not doing it.

and vicarius filii dei is latin for vicar of christ. look up the definition of vicar or its latin root vicarius

"Jesus uses the Church as an instrument to save people"

i think this is a common misconception among catholics AND protestants. any church doesnt save people. when you get saved you are then part of the church. the church is the byproduct of salvation not the other way around. the apostles preached salvation by grace through faith in Christ sacrifice, not leave Judiasm and let the church save you. Im begining to not even classify myself as protestant because this concept of a church saving you is creeping in. just my .02
 
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simonthezealot

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That is a mind trip. I was brought up Catholic and felt no Holy Spirit and God wasn't listening, only had fear.
I am a christian now and feel joy and peace and know God personally and fear is all gone.
How would it affect my faith on earth? I guess the joy would leave, and I would be worried of sinning every moment, and feel my works mattered.
If I found out after I saw Jesus? I would say, boy you really didn't want us to be happy in church on earth, did You?
This is, as you said, a "what if."
Well put Howard! this is the sentiment I hear continually at our church! Its frustrating more don't see this.
 
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sunlover1

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and vicarius filii dei is latin for vicar of christ.
look up the definition of vicar or its latin root vicarius

If you put that word in your query, all you
come up with is 666 junk

Here's what wikipedia says:

The statements are however rare and regarded by scholars as based on factual errors. Russell's claim, for example, that the term was used in the papal coronation is demonstrably false. The actual wording at the moment never contained the words Vicarius Filii Dei. The Cardinal deacon who crowned the Pope actually said:
Accipe thiaram tribus coronis ornatam, et scias te esse Patrem Principum et Regum, Rectorem Orbis, in terra Vicarium Salvatoris Nostri Jesu Christi, cui est honor et gloria in sæcula sæculorum. [7] (Receive the tiara adorned with three crowns and know that thou art Father of Princes and Kings, Ruler of the World, Vicar of Our Savior Jesus Christ on earth, to whom is honor and glory forever and ever.)

On the flip side, I didn't care for the
stuff I read over here.
Here's just a small taste of it.


"To believe that our Lord God the Pope has not the power to decree as he is decreed, is to be deemed heretical." The Gloss of Extravagantes of Pope John XXII, Cum. Inter, title 14, chapter 4, "Ad Callem Sexti Decretalium", Column 140, Paris, 1685. (In an Antwerp edition of the Extravagantes, the words, "Dominum Deum Nostrum Papam" (“Our Lord God the Pope”) can be found in column 153).

"It is quite certain that Popes have never disapproved or rejected this title 'Lord God the Pope' for the passage in the gloss referred to appears in the edition of the Canon Law published in Rome by Gregory XIII." Statement from Fr. A. Pereira.


I'm not real comfortable with some of the
stuff I saw on that last page.
 
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sunlover1

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even if the latin were to be differnt as you shown the word vicar is still used and has the same definition.
Sorry, You're correct.


[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]The Pope's
1x1.gif
Crown Bears This Inscription
[/FONT]​


[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif] Question. "What are the letters supposed to be in the Pope's crown, and what do they signify if anything?[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif] Answer. "The letters inscribed in the Pope's mitre are these: Vicarius Filii Dei, which is the Latin for Vicar of the Son of God. [/FONT]
 
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Rhamiel

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"vicarius filii dei is latin for vicar of christ."
no latin for vicar of christ is Vicarius Christi and I know this is what Jesus wants for "whoever hears you hears me" look at the old testament at the position of the what we would call a prime minister for the King, Isaiah 22 "20 In that day I will call my servant Eliakim the son of Hilkiah, 21 and I will clothe him with your robe, and will bind your girdle on him, and will commit your authority to his hand; and he shall be a father to the inhabitants of Jerusalem and to the house of Judah. 22 And I will place on his shoulder the key of the house of David; he shall open, and none shall shut; and he shall shut, and none shall open."
http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/mischedj/ct_papacy.html
but this is horribly off subject
 
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