Assessing our reality

[statrei]

What is the relevance of John. 10:10 and John 17:4 to contemporary Christianity? In both cases Jesus is speaking.

John 10:10 The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full
John 17:4 I glorified you on earth by completing the task you gave me to do.

Two thousand years after Jesus left can we say we have received this more abundant life? Has something gone dreadfully wrong?

 

[Tractor1]

What is the relevance of John. 10:10 and John 17:4 to contemporary Christianity? In both cases Jesus is speaking.

John 10:10 The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full
John 17:4 I glorified you on earth by completing the task you gave me to do.

Two thousand years after Jesus left can we say we have received this more abundant life? Has something gone dreadfully wrong?

The Gospel by John was written so the reader may believe Jesus is the Christ and by doing so have life through His name (20:31). That which is shown in (John 10) is the coming of the Savior, the Good Shepherd. The sheep in this portion of Scripture are not said to be led into the fold, which is Judaism, but out of it to find salvation, liberty, and pasture (vs. 9). The abundant life spoken of is the life which comes from His death and resurrection which is all found outside of Judaism, and in Him. Therefore, the relavence of this extended portion of Scripture demomstrates that the truth of the gospel of God's grace is addressed to Jews as it is to Gentiles, and on the same terms of faith in the Savior.

In Christ,
Tracey

 

[statrei]

Thanks for your contribution, Tracey, but you missed the essential question. The question is not what abundant life is. We can debate that for centuries. What we have is a declaration by Jesus that He had finished the work He came to do. The possibilities are not very many. Was He lying? I'd say No. Could it be that He did not know what He was talking about? I'd say No. Has something gone dreadfully wrong? I'd say Yes.

The more important question is why all the popes, pastors, prelates, priests, pontiffs and preachers have ignored this central teaching of Jesus Christ?

 

[Tractor1]

Thanks for your contribution, Tracey, but you missed the essential question. The question is not what abundant life is. We can debate that for centuries. What we have is a declaration by Jesus that He had finished the work He came to do. The possibilities are not very many. Was He lying? I'd say No. Could it be that He did not know what He was talking about? I'd say No. Has something gone dreadfully wrong? I'd say Yes.

The more important question is why all the popes, pastors, prelates, priests, pontiffs and preachers have ignored this central teaching of Jesus Christ?

A specific work was committed to the Savior that began with His sufferings on the cross and ended with His death. It's to this that His words "it is finished" refer. Christ spoke of this same saving work in His priestly prayer when He said, "I glorified Thee on the earth, having accomplished the work which Thou hast given Me to do" (John 17:4). Though the finished work of the cross is far too extensive to be discovered in any single phase, its propitiating work should be the most determining truth to which all gospel preaching is directed. The doctrine, being the Godward side of the finished work of Christ, teaches that His death for the sin of the world changed the position of mankind in its relation to God because He recognizes what Christ did in behalf of the whole world whether man enters into it or not. God, being propitious towards the unsaved and toward the sinning saint (1 John 2:2) removes all burden, leaving them only to believe. What was actually produced on the cross and finished when Christ died could be discovered with more accuracy by including Christ's redemption and His reconciliation.

In regard to your accusation against popes and pastors I've not had the displeasure to sit under the teaching of their types.

In Christ,
Tracey

 

[statrei]

Tracey, what you have repeated is not bibllical. It comes from men who refuse to accept the Bible's message for what it says. It is clear that Jesus did not think that His mission was to die but, rather, to demonstrate the truth about the Father by his life on earth. John 17:1-5 occurred long before cross and you have to decide whether you will accept the Bible as it "speaks" or the convenient interpretation theologians have given to to it. If you look throughout the book of John you will find that Jesus did not think His mission was to die. If if were then there would have been no need to avoid the death Herod had planned for Him. Why allow so many innocent children to die to avoid the death He had come to experience. Don't allow theologians to make you turn God into a heartless self-serving brute.

 

[Tractor1]

It is clear that Jesus did not think that His mission was to die but, rather, to demonstrate the truth about the Father by his life on earth.

I agree the Lord Jesus Christ has always been the expression, or manifestation of God-the living Word of God, as the Bible is the written Word of God. It is written of the Logos, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God....And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory as the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth" (John 1:1,2,14). Like a word is the expression of thought, the Logos is to the Godhead. However, your assertion that Jesus did not think His finished work would included His death is not backed up by Scripture. The anticipation of the cross was constantly before my Lord and Savior. The words, "Now My soul has become troubled; and what shall I say, Father, save Me from this hour? But for this purpose I came to this hour" (John 12:27), is just one example of His recorded looks forward into what awaited Him. His predictions of His own death (Matt. 16:21; 17:12, 22-23; Mark 9:30-32; Luke 9:31, 44), the inauguration of the Lord's Supper, the cup to be emptied, and the sufferings of Gethsemane all belong to His sufferings in anticipation. To me, Jesus showed the perfect example of what it means to have courage. To anticipate what awaited Him in fear, yet willingly give Himself for me.

In Christ,
Tracey

 

[mythbuster]

What is the relevance of John. 10:10 and John 17:4 to contemporary Christianity? In both cases Jesus is speaking.

John 10:10 The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full
John 17:4 I glorified you on earth by completing the task you gave me to do.

Two thousand years after Jesus left can we say we have received this more abundant life? Has something gone dreadfully wrong?

A lot has gone wrong, sure, but we can absolutely declare to all creation that we christians have received the eternal, uncreated, divine, zoe, abundant, life of God and we are partakers of the divine nature.

 

[statrei]

Mythbuster, so is this it? Is life only measured by how you perceive things? What about those who can change their perceptions through counseling. Have they obtained a surrogate to that more abundant life?

 

[mythbuster]

Christ had an all inclusive death on the cross. His death solved all of our problems. In fact, our problems were so bad that we were beyond repair. So that, in Christ, we have died. Not only so, but, in Him, we have resurrected and now walk in newness of life. This is the reality of baptism, not regarding our perceptions.

On the cross His side was pierced, releasing blood and water. His death was a release of His life so that today out of the throne of God and the Lamb flows a river of water of life, abundant and free. And today there is a call to come and drink of this water. To take this water into our being so that out of us will sping up fountains unto eternal life.

This is not a religion, but a person. God, in Christ, flows into us and reaches us as the Spirit. The Triune God reaches man and we today, enjoy, love, treasure, drink, eat, breath this great El Shaddai(?).

 

[statrei]

Surely, you know that this is all counter to what our reality is. Take a look around you. Watch the news. Look at your neighbor. Is this mess of an existence what Christ promised?

 

[mythbuster]

Your choice.

Choose the tree of life or not.The mind set on the Spirit is life and peace. The mind set on the flesh is death. we have a binary state.

The law of the Spirit of Life frees us from the law of sin and death.

Consider the apostle Paul. Robbed, beaten, shipwrecked, suffererd the loss all things, locked up. What did Paul have that could sustain him?

Paul had God.

He had God in a subjective experiential way called grace. This is the real saving grace, This grace saves us in our daily lives, even from our own self. This is how he could write -"yet not I but Christ, and, I wish that "every man could be as me except for these chains."

Where is this grace and how do we find it? By contacting God in our human spirit. With boldness we come to the throne of grace, finding grace for timely help. This is the very throne of God and the Lamb out of which flows the river of water of life freely.

What shall I give the Lord for all He has done for us? I'll take the cup of salvation and call upon the name of the Lord. God is rich to all who call upon Him.

This is it.

Call on Him!

 

[statrei]

Mythbuster, you are studiously avoiding the issue. Is this all we have to look forward to. You seem to be focussed on how to live in this world. There is no question that our faith enables us to do so, but many people who do not share our faith also live well in this world.

 

[mythbuster]

What is the relevance of John. 10:10 and John 17:4 to contemporary Christianity? In both cases Jesus is speaking.

John 10:10 The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full
John 17:4 I glorified you on earth by completing the task you gave me to do.

Two thousand years after Jesus left can we say we have received this more abundant life? Has something gone dreadfully wrong?

Here again is the OP.

And we have received this life. This is it.

What is lacking is not on God's end but on our end. Do you believe that Christ died for your sins and the sins of the whole world? Of course you do, because you believe what is said in the Bible. It is time to believe in the rest of the Bible, to believe in what is real, reality. Jesus is the triuth, but one can translate the same word for truth as reality. Jesus is the reality.

Peace.

 

[mythbuster]

Mythbuster, you are studiously avoiding the issue. Is this all we have to look forward to. You seem to be focussed on how to live in this world. There is no question that our faith enables us to do so, but many people who do not share our faith also live well in this world.

Is this all we have to look forward to? Yes. This is it. What we have, and what we have to look forward to is GOD, nothing more, nothing less. God is our portion, the Spirit is the blessing of Abraham. we have His life, WE HAVE THE LIFE OF GOD. We are his body, His bride, God wants to marry us. We were created for this.

Paul, in Colossians reveals Christ, as the embodiment of God, the image of the invisible God, the Firstborn form the dead, and the first among all creation. He also tells us that there is a great mystery that has been hidden from the generations. But God has willed to let the riches of this mystery to be known among the gentiles which is Christ in you.

Do you believe it? Christ, the image of the invisible God who is sitting at the right hand of the Father is also in us? We should be jumping up and down, crazy for Christ!

This is why He said I will not leave you as orphans, if I go then I am comming. His going was His comming, as the Spirit of Reality.

 

[statrei]

You confuse me, mythbuster. If this is all there is to be expected how can you say there has been a failure on our end? If this is all then there has been no failure for we have all that has been promised. However, if there really has been a failure on our end the solution is not to continue repeating what Christ's part is but to try to identify what it is that the church has been doing wrong. There seems to be a disconnect in the minds of my fellow Christians. On the one hand they claim that Christ has done all that He can do but they insist that He is the one who is holding back the final resolutioin. They seem to admit that there has been a failure in the church's part but refuse to admit that the church is wrong and needs to reconsider what it has been doing.

 

[mythbuster]

You confuse me, mythbuster. If this is all there is to be expected how can you say there has been a failure on our end? If this is all then there has been no failure for we have all that has been promised.

Epaphras, struggled in his prayers on behalf of the saints in Colossae, that they would stand mature and assured in the will of God. Paul did not cease from praying for the saints in Ephesus that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ would grant them a revelation in the full knowledge of Him; that their eyes would be enlightened that they would know the hope of His calling; that they would know the riches of the glory of His inheritance in he saints; that they would know the surpassing greatness of His power toward us who believe.

The failure on our end would be not to receive everything that God has completed, to deny the full work of Christ for religious or traditional reasons. We should cooperate with God so that the above prayers could be answered.

However, if there really has been a failure on our end the solution is not to continue repeating what Christ's part is but to try to identify what it is that the church has been doing wrong. There seems to be a disconnect in the minds of my fellow Christians. On the one hand they claim that Christ has done all that He can do but they insist that He is the one who is holding back the final resolutioin. They seem to admit that there has been a failure in the church's part but refuse to admit that the church is wrong and needs to reconsider what it has been doing.

Martin Luther certainly admited failures, reconsidered, and recovered justification by faith along with many other items. Today the recovery continues.