• Welcome to Christian Forums
  1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a forum to discuss Christianity in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

  2. The forums in the Christian Congregations category are now open only to Christian members. Please review our current Faith Groups list for information on which faith groups are considered to be Christian faiths. Christian members please remember to read the Statement of Purpose threads for each forum within Christian Congregations before posting in the forum.

Asleep or in Heaven or Hell? Where are they?

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by Debbie, Mar 11, 2002.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. MatthewDiscipleofGod

    MatthewDiscipleofGod Senior Veteran

    +261
    Baptist
    Married
    US-Others
    PART 2

    Judgment. [Heb. generally mishpat\, “decision,” “right,” “justice,” “ordinance”; Gr. generally krima, “judicial sentence,” and krisis, “act of judging,” “execution of a sentence.”] A term that may refer variously to the process of judging (Deut 1:17; Is 28:6; Mal 3:5), to the judicial decision (Deut 16:18) or sentence (Rev 17:1), to the decisions of God as expressed in His revealed will (Ps 19:9, KJV), to justice itself (Is 1:17), or to the execution of a sentence previously arrived at (Jer 51:9; Rev 19:2).
    The concept of God’s entering into judgment with the inhabitants of earth is frequently presented by Bible writers. Enoch, “the seventh from Adam,” pictured the Lord as coming to execute judgment upon all (Jude 14, 15). Isaiah described God as coming with fire to execute judgment (Is 66:15, 16, RSV), and the prophet Jeremiah pictured the awesome time when “the Lord will roar from on high” and enter “into judgment with all flesh” (Jer 25:30, 31, RSV). Daniel foresaw the time when “the judgment was set, and the books were opened” (Dan 7:10), and in mystic language Joel prophesied that God would “sit to judge all the heathen round about” (Joel 3:12; cf. vs 13–16).
    Jesus frequently referred to the final judgment. He declared that ancient Sodom and Gomorrah would be treated more leniently in the judgment for refusing the light they had than would the cities of His day that spurned Him (Mt 10:11, 14, 15), and the pagan cities of Tyre and Sidon would receive lesser condemnation in the judgment than Chorazin, Bethsaida, and Capernaum, which rejected Him (Lk 10:13–15). He asserted that men shall give an account of “every idle word” in the judgment (Mt 12:36; cf. chs 16–27; 24:30, 31; 25:31–46; Mk 8:38; Lk 9:26; etc.).
    Paul declared that God has appointed a day in which He will judge the world (Acts 17:31). He preached of coming judgment to Felix with such conviction that the Roman procurator trembled (ch 24:25). He showed that the conviction of a future judgment is found implanted in the human conscience (Rom 1:32; 2:14–16), and that for the wicked the prospect of a future judgment is a fearful thing (Heb 10:26, 27). Peter noted that both evil angels and wicked men are reserved unto judgment (2 Pe 2:4, 9; 3:7; cf. Jude 6). In their judgment the saints are to participate (1 Cor 6:2, 3).
    No man can escape the judgment, for all must appear before the “judgment seat of Christ”; and the decision of the judgment is based on “the things done in his body” (2 Cor 5:10; cf. Mt 7:16–20; Rev 20:13). The standard of judgment is the “law of liberty” (Jas 2:12; cf. vs 8–11). God’s judgment will be righteous (Rom 2:5; 2 Th 1:5; cf. Gen 18:25; Ps 19:9), decisive, and eternal in consequence (Heb 6:2; 9:27). In the judgment the whole life will be bared before God (Ec 12:13, 14; cf. Lk 12:2).
     
  2. Mandy

    Mandy Well-Known Member

    +7

    Eph 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.

    Eph 4:9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?

    Eph 4:10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

    Jesus descended into Hades after He was crucified and I believe that He did that in order to bring those that died in faith to heaven, because prior to Jesus' sacrifice no one could enter into heaven, because OT sacrifices were only a covering for sins.


    1Pe 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

    1Pe 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

    1Pe 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.


    There is more, but I can't remember exactly where it's at.
     
  3. cougan

    cougan Senior Member

    766
    +6
    Christian
    Perhaps this article will be of interest

    Did Solomon Teach the Doctrine of Soul-sleeping?
    by Wayne Jackson
    Article Description
    A critic writes to argue that the book of Ecclesiastes teaches that the dead are not conscious. What are the real facts of the case?



    A passage in the book of Ecclesiastes reads as follows:


    “For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity. All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again. Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth? Wherefore I perceive that there is nothing better, than that a man should rejoice in his own works; for that is his portion: for who shall bring him to see what shall be after him? (3:19-22).”
    A reader, who subscribes to the notion that the dead are “unconscious,” appeals to this passage and draws from it the following conclusions.


    The dead have no knowledge.

    They have neither memory nor feelings.

    Man and beast have one breath and all go to one place, to the dust of the earth.

    A dead man cannot be brought to see what will be after him.
    We are happy to respond to the gentleman’s comments.

    In logic, there is a principle known as the “law of rationality,” which simply suggests that, in analyzing a position, one must draw only such conclusions as are warranted by the evidence. Our respondent has seriously ignored this concept. He has drawn drastic inferences that are not justified by any fair analysis of this text.

    Let us consider each of the four points argued above.


    “The dead have no knowledge.”
    There is absolutely nothing in this context that asserts or implies that the dead are bereft of all knowledge. There is a passage, later in the book, which states that “the dead know not anything” (9:5). But the phrase is qualified by the immediate context which shows that the writer has in mind events that occur “under the sun” (vv. 3, 6). That text merely affirms that once a person is dead, he is no longer an observer of what transpires upon the earth.

    Verse 5 also says: “. . . neither have they any more a reward.” Are we to surmise that this phrase denies any reward following death? Of course not; such a view would contradict numerous passages of clearest import.

    Again, the meaning obviously is this – those who have died have no further reward relative to achievements being accomplished on this planet.


    “They have neither memory nor feelings.”
    This assertion similarly finds no support in the context cited. It most likely has been borrowed from 9:5b as well. Again, though, the text does not provide the evidence coveted by our critic. It simply says that men die and, as a rule, soon are forgotten. It is not that ”their memory” is erased by death; it is the “memory of them” that soon fades. Admittedly, it reflects a rather dismal view of life (not uncommon in that day of limited revelation); it is not, however, an affirmation of materialism.


    “Man and beast have one breath and all go to one place, to the dust of the earth.”
    Solomon does suggest that both man and beast have a common appointment – death. Just as animals expire, so do human beings. All are subject to the consequences of the introduction of sin into earth’s environment (see Rom. 5:12; 8:20ff).

    Note that in Psalm 49:12, the writer says that man “is like the beasts that perish,” and yet, only three verses later he affirms that “God will redeem my soul from the power of Sheol.” (See also Psalm 73:22, 24).

    What if one were to extract the expression – “man hath no preeminence above the beasts” – from this context, and argue, on the basis of that phrase, contend that human beings are no better than beasts? There are horrible implications flowing from that premise! But such a procedure would reflect the same sort of interpretative fallacy of which our critic has been guilty.


    “A dead man cannot be brought to see what will be after him.”
    It is quite true that the dead cannot be “brought” back to earth’s domain in a post-mortem state to observe what is transpiring in this environment. But what does that have to do with the matter of his perception in the realm of the dead? Not a thing.


    Two common mistakes
    Those who are determined to argue the dogma of “soul-sleeping,” from passages in the Old Testament, commit two common mistakes.

    First, they do as the gentleman under review did – they wrest the passage from its context and thrust upon it an application not intended by the original author. The old saying: “A text out of context is but mere pretext,” was never truer than in this case.

    Second, materialists frequently fail to recognize the principle of progressive revelation. In this case, they appear to be unaware of the fact that those of the Old Testament era did not have nearly the insight into the subject of the state of the dead as was revealed later by the illumination of the New Testament.

    Paul speaks to this very point when declares that Christ, by means of his redemptive mission, “brought life and immortality to light through the gospel” (2 Tim. 1:10). While the hope of immortality was not completely absent in earlier ages, it was shrouded in considerable obscurity (cf. Job 14:7-14; 19:23-27).

    The New Testament makes it emphatically clear that the dead are conscious.
     
  4. 2002 Christian

    2002 Christian Member

    402
    +0
    Post #11 above seems irrefutable to me. Jesus was not confused. If the dead were conscious, Jesus was mistaken in His comments there. See post #11.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
Loading...