Ask the (novice) Shaman

[Wicked Willow]

Following in the hallowed tradition of the "ask the X"-threads, I thought I'd open up a new one on a particular path I'm (as of now) loosely affiliated with.

So, fire away!

 

[Muad Dib]

No way, Im guessing shaman from old native american stories and from similar tribes??

I always thought this was oral tradition and so wouldn't survive into nowadays, could you please elaborate on what exactly a shaman is, what a shaman does, also whether any tradition survived to be intact? (if so from where geographically?)

(I know its a lot to ask, you could send me off to google it, but a personal answer seems to be more comprehensive and to the point)

 

[Speculative]

Glad I came across this thread. My sister-in-law has always been interested in esoteric pursuits, the paranormal and such. A couple of years ago she declared she was a Shaman. We're all kind of skeptical because I, for one, thought that becoming a Shaman was an undertaking which required a great amount of rigor, and my sis just seems to dabble in things. So I have a couple of questions for you.

1) What exactly is a Shaman?

2) How does one become a shaman?

Thanks

 

[durangodawood]

Following in the hallowed tradition of the "ask the X"-threads, I thought I'd open up a new one on a particular path I'm (as of now) loosely affiliated with.

So, fire away!

What are the lower and upper worlds?
.
Are they regions of human consciousness? Actual planes of existence? Something else?
.

 

[Wicked Willow]

No way, Im guessing shaman from old native american stories and from similar tribes??

I always thought this was oral tradition and so wouldn't survive into nowadays, could you please elaborate on what exactly a shaman is, what a shaman does, also whether any tradition survived to be intact? (if so from where geographically?)

(I know its a lot to ask, you could send me off to google it, but a personal answer seems to be more comprehensive and to the point)

Shamanic traditions are a universal human heritage; you'll find traces of distinctive shamanic practices in myths and traditions of virtually any culture on the planet, although in most cases, the shamanic roots lie in the distant past.

The distinctive feature of shamanism is the trance journey - altered states of consciousness induced by drumming, dancing, sensory overload or deprivation, hallucinogenic substances etc.


As a rule of thumb, the "travelling" techniques get lost as soon as a culture starts to encourage specialization and institutionalization. Shamans were "jacks-of-all-trades", basically: healers, priests, consultants, oracles, storytellers, historians.

The most intact traditions can be found in cultures that would be commonly regarded as "primitive" by urbanized societies such as our own: the American natives, the Inuit, certain Siberian peoples, the Saami of Finland and so forth.
I don't practice any of these (as these are not my culture), but I feel free to "borrow" the trance techniques to delve into the depths of my own (as well as the collective) subconscious.

I may elaborate a bit more later on, but I guess this ought to be a good starting point.

 

[Wicked Willow]

What are the lower and upper worlds?
.
Are they regions of human consciousness? Actual planes of existence? Something else?
.

I consider them regions of the collective (and individual) subconscious; a transpersonal, deeply symbolic realm filled with archetypes.

This, however, does not render them into "mere" fancies. To say it in the words of a ceremonial mage: "You'd be surprised just how real an archetype can be."

So, in a way, they *are* actual planes of existence - just not in the typical "a location out there"-sense.

 

[durangodawood]

I consider them regions of the collective (and individual) subconscious; a transpersonal, deeply symbolic realm filled with archetypes.

This, however, does not render them into "mere" fancies. To say it in the words of a ceremonial mage: "You'd be surprised just how real an archetype can be."

So, in a way, they *are* actual planes of existence - just not in the typical "a location out there"-sense.

Thats how I see it too.
.
Also, there are absolutely contemporary native shamans in the USA whos traditions run back to before white people arrived. I studied under one for a semester. The class was called "Native American Medicine" but should have been called "Practical Shamanism".
.

 

[silscr]

Hi WW

How was your day today?
What's your favorite type of music?
And what do you like about the Non-Christian forum?

Thanks for answering my questions

 

[sbvera13]

I hope WW won't mind me adding to her thread, since it's the tradition I practice also.

1) What exactly is a Shaman?

2) How does one become a shaman?

Thanks

A shaman is one who speaks/communes with/or otherwise communicates with the natural spirits on behalf of their community. These spirits can be as local as the spirit of that tree over there, or as archetypal as the Spirit of Plants. The second half - on behalf of their community - is important. Anyone can practice shamaism, not everyone will deserve the title "shaman." Just like anyone can be Catholic, but not al lCatholics will be priests. Most people don't know enough about the tradition to make the distinction though; they usually refer to their own pursuits. We are severely disconnected from the cultures where shamanism is strong; most people are never exposed to the traditional attitudes and their terminology often reflects the different approach.

One becomes a shaman by the will of the spirits. It is not a choice the person makes. One can choose to communicate with spirits, or to practice shamanism (and many do), but to actually become a "shaman" is an act initiated by forces outside oneself. What training, rituals, etc, are invovled in becoming a shaman once called will vary depending on the cultural tradition the shaman belongs to. It may be a vision quest, a demonstration of power before the community, or it may be years-long apprentishship. There are many traditions.

 

[Wicked Willow]

How was your day today?

Apart from an annoying cold, my day's been pretty good so far, and will hopefully continue in that fashion.

What's your favorite type of music?

My tastes are pretty eclectic, actually. (And you could say that about most areas of my life, not just music.) There are very few genres that I shun completely; but as a rule of thumb, I tend to loathe cheap, run-of-the-mill songs without texture or character that're just thrown on the market for a quick buck - and you can find those in virtually every genre, even in the supposedly "Independent"-niche.
If you looked at my CD collection, you'd probably find Tori Amos right next to Amadeus Mozart, the Beatles, Cypress Hill, the Dixie Chicks, Metallica, Michael Jackson, Nirvana, the Offspring, Therion, Lila Downs, Medieval music, Calypso, Russian church choirs and so forth.
If there's any pattern to be detected, I suppose it might be that I tend to dislike electronic dance music (with a few notable exceptions), and have never quite warmed to the whole Hip Hop scene (again, with a few notable exceptions). Between the two big R's (Rap vs. Rock), I definitely tend towards the screaming guitars.

And what do you like about the Non-Christian forum?

The mixed audience. Honestly, nothing's as boring as a forum where every single member thinks more or less along the same lines as yourself. There's just nothing to discover, nothing to measure yourself against, nothing to challenge your established beliefs. If I was a Christian, I suppose CHRISTIAN Forums would be the last place I'd frequent, given that I'd permanently be surrounded by like-minded people.
Interestingly, I've never felt the pull of the herd-mentality. I don't feel the need to immerse myself in a group, to build my identity around an affiliation, to become part of an "us" that is inevitably contrasted with a "them". Mankind is my family, the world is my home, and differences are the spice that makes things interesting.

Thanks for answering my questions

You're welcome!

 

[sbvera13]

What are the lower and upper worlds?
.
Are they regions of human consciousness? Actual planes of existence? Something else?
.

You will hate me for this, but you will have to decide this on your own.

Tradition says the spirit world(s) are the "dreaming" of the natural world. Separate, but inseparable. Shamanism accepts the internal stimulus - mind, imagination, and dream - as just as real, and valid as the waking, natural world. The type of reality is very different however. It is something that has to be experienced to be truly understood; it cannot be explained easily.

That is why paradox is often used to convey spiritual wisdom (a zen koan for example); the paradox contains wisdom, it doesn't explain it. You must explore the paradox deeply with your own mind, and hopefully you will have a better understanding afterwards. And so I offer the answer: the Spirit World(s) are simultaneously realms of human consciousness, of pure imagination, and of reality.

 

[durangodawood]

Does your shamanic practice suffer at all if you are immersed in a man made environment?
.
Or, to phrase it positively, does it benefit by access to natural open spaces?
.

 

[Wicked Willow]

Does your shamanic practice suffer at all if you are immersed in a man made environment?
.
Or, to phrase it positively, does it benefit by access to natural open spaces?
.

Well, actually, I am not in the least bit hampered by man-made environments, as I consider them to be just as "natural" as any other place. The concrete jungle operates by the same laws as the rainforests.
(And, by the way, most of the forests in my country - or any other type of landscape, for that matter - are "man-made"; the trees are planted, the wildlife population controlled by hunters and foresters, the rivers are regulated, the heaths are artificially kept from turning back into forest and so on and so forth.)

That said, I'm an environmentalist, and I do tend to prefer "natural" environments - not because I couldn't practice otherwise, but because it's simply more pleasant to be surrounded by living things, and as far removed from typical city noises as possible.

 

[durangodawood]

Well, actually, I am not in the least bit hampered by man-made environments, as I consider them to be just as "natural" as any other place. The concrete jungle operates by the same laws as the rainforests.
(And, by the way, most of the forests in my country - or any other type of landscape, for that matter - are "man-made"; the trees are planted, the wildlife population controlled by hunters and foresters, the rivers are regulated, the heaths are artificially kept from turning back into forest and so on and so forth.)

That said, I'm an environmentalist, and I do tend to prefer "natural" environments - not because I couldn't practice otherwise, but because it's simply more pleasant to be surrounded by living things, and as far removed from typical city noises as possible.

If that (in bold) is the case, then I'd expect mad made features of the world to have spirits and appear in the spirit world just like strictly natural elements (in the old sense).
.
Does that happen? Am I right to expect that?
.
If man made features of the world dont have spirits like natural features... then what does that say about our place in making the world?
.

 

[Muad Dib]

The distinctive feature of shamanism is the trance journey - altered states of consciousness induced by drumming, dancing, sensory overload or deprivation, hallucinogenic substances etc.

A question springs to mind, which I have debated for a long time with a few friends who were interested in similar pursuits, to no resolution, perhaps by going into shamanism you may have found a resolution. When you induce altered states of consciousness by drumming, dancing, sensory overload and deprivation, and most of all hallucinogenic substances, how can you tell the difference between a genuine realisation about the world and well put simply a drug induced trip which was essentially mad firing of neurones and a chemical imbalance?

Mushrooms would probably be a good example, people on mushrooms can have the most astounding realisations, discoveries, journeys even, however after the occurrence of the event and in the morning of the next day they can either discount the experience as "fun" , or attempt to somehow reconcile their experiences with the normal waking world, what would you do in this situation, and why?

 

[Wicked Willow]

If that (in bold) is the case, then I'd expect mad made features of the world to have spirits and appear in the spirit world just like strictly natural elements (in the old sense).
.
Does that happen? Am I right to expect that?
.
If man made features of the world dont have spirits like natural features... then what does that say about our place in making the world?
.

We constantly make the world - each of us. All our sensory perceptions are filtered and interpreted by our minds; we are not only natural pattern-detectors, but also pattern-creators. (Just think of language, if you will: all self-referential symbols and dichotomies, not to mention symbols of symbols of symbols.)

That said, I suppose that most man-made objects are too short-lived or insignificant to really leave much of an impression in the Dreaming (at least on an individual level, if you get my drift). But if archetypes are "real", then so is New York, or the Eiffel tower, or just about anything that has acquired a significance of its own, beyond its "mere" physical existence.

I think that our dichotomy of culture vs. nature is a relatively new one; in traditional legends, it's not only the trees, streams and mountains that have spirits, but also exceptional "man-made" objects: just think of Kusanagi or Caledfwlch/Excalibur.

 

[Speculative]

I hope WW won't mind me adding to her thread, since it's the tradition I practice also.

Apparently not as she has decided not to answer, but I thank you for your response.

 

[sbvera13]

When you induce altered states of consciousness by drumming, dancing, sensory overload and deprivation, and most of all hallucinogenic substances, how can you tell the difference between a genuine realisation about the world and well put simply a drug induced trip which was essentially mad firing of neurones and a chemical imbalance?

I personally have never used chemical trance inducements, even though they are traditional in many cultures. I can relate a story from someone else who did, though. I knew a young shaman who had deliberately abandoned hallucinogens for exactly the reason you describe. He found the drumming method very difficult at first, because he had learned to trance without any mental discipline, but after practice and learning how to do it he told our group that he was able to have more coherent and infomrative trance experiences.

 

[Wicked Willow]

Glad I came across this thread. My sister-in-law has always been interested in esoteric pursuits, the paranormal and such. A couple of years ago she declared she was a Shaman. We're all kind of skeptical because I, for one, thought that becoming a Shaman was an undertaking which required a great amount of rigor, and my sis just seems to dabble in things. So I have a couple of questions for you.

1) What exactly is a Shaman?

2) How does one become a shaman?

Thanks

For some peculiar reason, I totally missed this post of yours - but fortunately for me, sbvera already jumped into the breach. I can hardly hope to add anything significant to that excellent reply.

Trance journeys are basically open to anyone, and even total rookies often experience successes on the very first try. However, as sbvera pointed out, this does *not* make you a shaman. (Well, there are some cultures with intact shamanic traditions where you can become apprenticed to a shaman - but these are the BIG exception.)

Often, a true shaman's path starts with a sort of "sickness" - under the auspices of modern Western medicine, this phase might very likely be regarded as a psychotic episode.
HOWEVER (and this is important to note), things don't stay that way: the shaman-to-be undergoes a ritual (often preceded by an extensive period of fasting, deprivation, or whatever) that can pretty much be described as a rebirth; the accompanying visions typically involve the experience of death, of descending into the underworld and being ravaged by entropy - only to arise renewed, returning to life as a new person.
And here's the most important aspect: as with Buddhist monks, a psychological survey indicates that such shamans are MORE psychologically stable than the average citizen, with significantly fewer neuroses.

The pioneers of psychology, particularly Freud, perceived Shamanism (and religion in general) as pathological; to them, a shaman seemed a raving lunatic in a society that had cut out a special niche for its madmen. However, nothing could be further from the truth. They are psychonauts, fostering an awareness of their own psyche that is rivaled by few.

 

[silscr]

Good afternoon Willow,

hope you feel better.

What all do "you" do as a Shaman? What are your practices?

Is that your photo in the Avatar?

Where would you go if you were a Christian, if not a Christian forum?

I agree about diversity being the spice that makes things interesting.

I like a mixture of music as well.

I appreciate you creating this Thread & I Hope your day goes well today

silscr