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Possessing an object is a human condition also, doesn't matter how much you spin it around.
Still reeks as anthropomorphic qualities, Allah has a face, but regardless it is a face even though no one has seen it.
Doesn't even apply, Christ was man, He was not man turned to God.
He also resurrected from the dead like no man did
and yet Muhammad is still dead.
Actually I have been pretty consistent in my argument. Mary is not worshiped. That is one consistent argument, regardless what definition you tag to it. Your argument would only hold water if you could prove worship of Mary
Mary statues are not worshiped as god.
Which is a vague and perverted definition. Anything can fit the agenda here, anything can be falsehood. Falsehoods can be declared later on. That goes to show you the real inconsistent face of Islam and the reason of their barbaric chaos going on in the world today.
Be consistent for once, you just said "Islaam declares global struggle against falsehood, and idol-worship is the greatest falsehood" You just forgot to give the definition of this "struggle"
So? What were Jesus' sins according to your belief?
Jesus said to them when they questioned how He knew Abraham, He said 'Before Abraham, I AM' which means God.
He told them right to their faces He was God...He said 'I AM'...which is the name given to Moses when He asked God His name.
St John says the Word was with God, the Word is God and the Word became Flesh.
Just because Jesus came to be one of us so He could die for us TO OPEN THE GATES OF HEAVEN... doesn't mean He was not God.
Isaias said 'Born unto us a son and He shall be called God Almighty and the Father of the world to come...'
IE - God was going to be born unto us.
And i could go on and on and on with this. I could show you many verses of the OT and NT to show Jesus was the Messiah - Who is God.
OT tells us incense was required by God in the Temple.
And the Revelation tells us prayers are like incense - pleasing to God.
Indeed, it would be more fitting for the user to have posted 'God is the Father, Son and Holy Spirit', but you can always tell how weak someone is in a debate when they degenerate the conversation into grammatical mistakes.
What role does the Holy Spirit play is Islam?
What role does demons and Satan play in Islam?
If Allah and YWAH are the same God (as we discussed before), then why is there the division? It seems to me that when Abraham and Sarah had Ismaiel they did it without God, but when God performed a miracle for Sarah to have Isaac, then Isaac was God's choice. To me that is where the division takes place.
There can only be one God, so someone is off. I am a follower of Yeshua, and of His truth, and His whole Word - the Word of God - from Gen to Revelations speaks of Yeshua coming to be our propitiation.
Do the Muslims realize Jesus was to be a King/Priest on the order of Melchizedek?I don't know what his sins were, nor is it my job to find out. Every human being is a son or daughter of Adam, and every son, daughter of Adam commits sins. Jesus is no exception to this rule. God alone will judge us for our sins.
Can you clarify what you mean by lying about your beliefs?
Is it ok to lie to someone if it means you are able to convert them to Islam?
In today's standards 14 is young, but back in the days of the Lord, life spans were shorter and 50 was a very old person.And according to modern laws of the West, 14 year old is a no-no. Thus we see the age when a child becomes an adult and therefore eligible for marriage is not universally defined, but rather culturally defined. It was common in middle eastern culture for girls to get married early. Also, you know there is a famous story of a thai girl who is 9 years old that gave birth to a child. Obviously it proves puberty for girls can come at such an early age as 9 for girls, thus in all cultures 9 year old girl can be considered no more as a child but as a young adult who can even get married.
Actually they are Three in One and thay ARE God, because it is grammatically correct, altho the Essense of God is not humanly comprehensible.LOL if you typed that sentence in microsoft word, a green line would appear under it informing you of a grammatical mistake (fragment consider revising). You can either change it to ARE Gods or IS God.
SO you're basing the Essense of God on a computer program.And if you change it to IS God you have another grammatical mistake according to microsoft word, because three things can't be one!
I am Catholic - we dont believe in the rapture.Wow, the book of revelation describes future events, the event in particular is after the rapture. No one is in heaven right now, because we will only go to heaven or hell AFTER the resurrection which hasn't even happened yet.
Idols and images who are gods to the ppl who are bowing to the - is worship. idols ARE their gods...Lot came before God commanded Israel to not bow to idols or images.
Evidently - God can menifest our hearts to Heavenly beings...And how do you know what was in John's heart. Only God knows what is in your heart, so how could the Angel rebuke John, unless angels, along with God, know what is in your heart. Obviously the angel can't see what is in his heart, but the angel can see that Mr. John is prostrating to him, and the Angel knows that is forbidden, and so the angel chastises Mr. John for doing so.
I already showed Isaias did...Not a single prophecy mentions that the messiah will be God Himself.
Anyone claiming to change what He taught - yeah!He never said "all" prophets after him will be false. Furthermore, your beloved St. Paul said that the gift of prophecy can still be attained, after Jesus left (1 Corinthians 14:1), now why would Mr. Paul say you should desire the gift of prophecy if all the prophets that come after Jesus must necessarily be false?
And according to your creed, the holy spirit is always present, even at the time of Jesus the holy spirit was there was he not? But according to John 16, the prophecy of the counsellor or spirit of truth indicates that he can only come when Jesus leaves, so obviously he's not talking about the holy spirit. Also, according to the prophecy, the spirit of truth will speak only that which he hears, that which is revealed to him. However, all christians believe that the Holy Spirit does not receive revelation like a prophet, rather the holy spirit is itself the vehicle through which God reveals things to the prophets.
Do you have a better argument?Lies, lies, and more lies.
Why? What is wrong using a little bit of reason and logic? The rules pertaining to the saliva of dogs are scientifically absurd and it doesn't make any sense. What is not to understand here, please explain?You are not arguing with an atheist, but you are arguing like an atheist, objecting to Islaam's rules pertaining to dogs which you simply don't understand.
Because it is scriptural and theological. Christ is the bread and wine, His Body and Blood which we partake, this is necessary for us. This has nothing to do with condemning all dogs demon-possessed and unclean. There is no logic in it as dogs are pretty useful to mankind. The irony is that they are demon-possessed yet they are used for labor and certain fields of work under Islam.I never said it is a physical satisfactional act. I merely suggested that why are the rules so rigid when it comes to eucharist and seemingly so illogical? Why wine only and why bread only?
I already explained that Communion is not done solely because of a commandment, there is much depth to it, such as Christian partaking in the Divine nature for the forgiveness of sins. The history of the ban of dogs solely based on Muhammad's fear of them, which is not theological AT ALL. There is no theological basis for God to refuse one's prayer because a dog passed in front of them, this is almost fatalistic thought because the one can not control if the dog passes in front of them or not.There is no logical answer except what you affirmed previously "Because God commanded it".
That is not due to superstition though, that is difference from the hatred for dogs in Islam.Of course there are rules for communion, you have to eat bread and drink wine (you cant substitute those for something else).
I don't have a dog, because we both work and we might not be able to take care of the poor thing. I have tons in my arsenal if that is what you want, but I don't go to islamic forums and try to "invite" them to Christianity. My function here is to prevent certain people from spreading baseless accusations against my faith, which is what you do. Your function should be answering the questions that regards to your faith, not assuming details of others' faith.If you want to keep a dog in your house be my guest. I think nit-picking about such issues just shows that you have really nothing in your arsenal to attack Islaam except talking about dogs.
Yes you did, probably 7 times already, but it is just that you repeat it, that doesn't mean much to me. We worship the way Christians always worshiped, we don't need silly rituals like washing ourselves 7 times to make Allah pleased. That is not the way we understand worship.I mentioned before you have a very narrow understanding of worship.
Faith in God is deeper than a slave/master relationship. It is personal, not communal.Islaam teaches us to obey all the commandments of Allaah, that is the purpose of the shareeah. One cannot get close to Allaah if one is intentionally disobeying His commands.
God set Israelites apart from the other tribes and their faiths in certain false gods but not God of Abraham by these commandments. Islam's rule pertaining dogs and their saliva has no significant theological stance, that is why it is superstitiously absurd.Btw, what is the reason in the Torah for God commanding the Israelites various things, like, don't eat pork, don't eat shrimp, don't eat milk and beef together, ensure the dishes where milk is prepared are separate from dishes and utensils that come into contact with beef, etc. By your line of reasoning, these commandments are not equally as "absurd" or "illogical" as Islaam's rules pertaining to dogs?
Really? It is supposed to be a visitation by an entity that poses as an angel, not Muhammad dreaming it all. If Gabriel was "witnessed" by Muhammad's companions indeed, then there is no reason for them not to hear these revelations, unfortunately, that never happens, we never know who is revealing what...How can you hear "revelations" unless you are the one receiving them? Your objections make absolutely no sense!
Actually this is quite interesting, because my mom is a universalist New Ager... She approves it all. Though I wonder why should she distress about? Because I do believe that Islam is a false religion and made my case to my family about it.You were once a Muslim. I feel sorry for your parents, especially your mother that her son has left Islaam. she must be going through much distress. My thoughts and prayers are with her.
That is actually more interesting. We Eastern Orthodox do not even have Virgin Mary's statues, or idols or whatever you seem to grasp in your narrow understanding of our means of worship, Catholics do have her statues, I was defending their position, because I know for a fact that they do not worship Mary. Pray that so you can look and see beyond your anger and barriers.But if you want to continue worshipping idols of virgin mary, that is your free choice and no one can stop you. All we can do is pray that Allaah guides these people to worship only One God and to turn away from idol-worship (ameen)
False. With parental consent, states allow 14-16 year olds to obtain marriage certificates. Thus your point is moot. No state allow a 6 year old for the same thing, let alone 9 years old to have sex. Prepare your argument better. There is a huge difference between 6 and 14 and in one case God's will is apparent through His messenger angel, the other one is upon a carnal dream.And according to modern laws of the West, 14 year old is a no-no.
Indeed, it would be more fitting for the user to have posted 'God is the Father, Son and Holy Spirit', but you can always tell how weak someone is in a debate when they degenerate the conversation into grammatical mistakes.
I find it hilarious that all the Muslims I've talked to think that Saudi Arabia is an atrocious society by religious standards, not to mention political e.g. collaborating with America, whereas a Salafi Muslim thinks it's great. Shouldn't Muslims of the Salafi stripe hate SA even more?You mentioned earlier something about Saudi Arabia being the best most righteous society on earth. Why do think there is such great Muslim emigration to the West?
I knew this was coming, that is why I said the trap you already set will not work, because again you conveniently ignore the fact that those specific Jews carried the valid practice of censing to the invalid, this is why God rebuked them. I don't need to escape anyone just because you seem to think so, I believe in the God of OT who is also my Savior. The incensing by Jews, although it was not produced following the destruction of the Second Temple in 70 CE, the composition of the ancient Temple incense for future use in a restored Temple as part of daily Jewish services is studied by Orthodox Judaism...So here you admit that the church teaches that you should incense relics and icons, supposedly to show respect and devotion to God's special friends (i.e. Virgin Mary and the saints).
Yet the God of the Old Testament (whom you are constantly trying to escape) has severely condemned incensing any image or icon. You said that the bronze serpent was originally an image or an icon, not an idol. But it became an idol and that why God ordered it to be destroyed.
Censing doesn't convert something from one state to another. It was the actions and behavior Jews in regards to this object that condemned them. If you are even attempting to entertain the silly notion that we turn the icons into idols by censing them, you have to try better, because you already tried bowing, prostrating and other nonsense ascribed to us.However, you conveniently forgot to mention how it went from being a mere icon to a full-fledged idol....the israelites began to incense it (just like you incense "icons" of virgin mary).
Nonsense, we cense the icons of saints to, why are you so stuck with Virgin Mary? Because you don't know any other argument... At the Vespers service, the Church sings from Psalm 141: "Let my prayer arise in Your sight as incense, and let the lifting up of my hands, be as an evening sacrifice." Incense has always been a part of the worship of God. There are many references to the burning of incense in the Old Testament as I already mentioned.So there's another example of how you worship virgin mary, not only do you bow to her image, make pilgrimages to shrines containing her image, pray to her image, but on top of all that you even incense her image!
I never agreed that we worshiped Virgin Mary to being with, denial is something you reject given the proven existence of the fact, refusal to acknowledge it, like Muhammad's denial of Christ's Crucifixion, we never worshiped Virgin Mary or saints, but only God, your misconceptions don't make use so, and you are yet to bring forth a challenging argument other than repeating "Christians worship Virgin Mary" What you commit is called argumentum ad nauseam, look it up. It is indeed true that everyone will answer to God, fortunately not to you.Still want to deny you don't worship virgin Mary? Be my guest, you will have to answer to the One True God for that.
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LOL there is absolutely no connection between "ego eimi" and YHWH.
Why did they pick up stones if they misunderstood Him?
They knew what He said, and He slipped away from them - but they wanted to stone Him for 'making Himself' God - of which He didnt recant.
Actually, the name of God YHWH when translated is not "I AM", but "I AM THAT I AM" or "I WILL BE THAT WHICH I WILL BE". To say the phrase "ego eimi" corresponds to YHWH is an error to say the least.
"St" John basically plagiarized that from Philo of Alexandria, a Jewish philosopher.
Look disobedience and 'agreement to sin against God' makes humanity impure. Adam and Eve collectively betrayed God, they obviously didnt trust Him, they disobeyed Him directly and they choose the serpent [satan] over God Who gave them EVERYTHING...instead believing lies about Him.And why does Jesus have to die to open the gates of heaven? God doesn't have to die to do anything. He merely wills it to happen and it does.
Listen...Jesus is God..The name Emmanu-El means God with us, and it is actually referring to someone else, (read the context about Isaiah), I'll explain this later, inshaa Allaah. Similarly, possessing this kind of name does not make one God. These type of names are common in Hebrew. For example, look at the name of Elijah in Hebrew, which is Eliyahu, which basically means "El is Yah", or God is the Lord. Yet no one suggests from Elijah's name that he himself is God.
Show me as many as you want, I will show you to be wrong in each and every case.
Of course, incense is part of worship, thus its only to be for God. Yet Christians burn incense to Virgin Mary, I have a picture of the previous Pope burning incense to a statue of Virgin Mary, if you don't believe me I'll post it for you (though I think there's no point since most people know its a common Catholic practice).
Show me where... I am curious how you are going to attempt to set this argument.The simple answer is because he preached that Jesus is God
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]Romans 14:14 [/FONT] [FONT=Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]As one who is in the Lord Jesus, I am fully convinced that no food is unclean in itself. [/FONT]as well as many other weird stuff (like there's nothing wrong with eating meat sacrificed to idols).
Yea? Based on what source you believe that he had a vision? The fact that same vision appeared to another man foretelling him that Paul will to come to him? The transformation of Paul from persecutor to believer in Christ? Or that he went into a cave and an entity who called himself an angel physically abused him to the point of killing him?We believe that if indeed he did have a vision on the road to damascus, it must have been a vision of the devil and not Jesus.
And that is what believers do. These believers don't accuse and judge each other on worship of God without knowing the content of their hearts, or at least their theology... Islam is not in this category, it is a false religion that tries to belong by irreconcilable claims to an Abrahamic faith where in reality there are no connections other than arabs being descendants of Ishmael. That is some stretch.Allaah is the same God as the God of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, Aaron, etc., There is only One God, the same God who commands that His believers stay away from idols and worship Him alone.
Throne is THE creation, or A creation because how you word this will make a difference, in both cases, the word throne will still be not applicable.The Throne is a creation of Allaah, glorifying Him and a testament to His Might and Holiness. He does not "sit" on it like a man sits on a chair, He is above the Throne in a manner befitting His Majesty.
Look who is talking and calling me "hypocritical". I am not afraid to address any nonsense you post here, that is why this thread is over 35 pages... By your admission, God's throne in the Bible is not applicable to Islamic definition so what are you trying to gain by comparing these definitions when they don't compare? The throne of God is by far the most exclusive place in existence. The Lord has established His throne in the heavens, and His kingdom rules over all. Psalm 103:19. It is exclusively Gods. Its been occupied since before time. Your throne, O God, is forever and ever. Psalm 45:6 / Hebrews 1:8 Its never been vacant and never will be. The character of God has always been to give and to share. He gives eternal life to those who believe in the Person and personal work of Christ in their lives. He delegates amazing authority to people. But He will not share His throne! While we read of many other thrones in the courtrooms of heaven, occupied by people and angels (See Dan. 7), the throne of God stays exclusively His.You obviously are afraid to address why the Bible affirms a throne for God (yet you want to criticize the Islaamic idea that Allaah possesses a throne - very hypocritical of you). There is a saying: "don't throw rocks at someone's house if your own house is made of glass".
What you don't seem grasp yet is that anthropomorphism in this context is simply the attribution of human motivation, characteristics, or behavior to God. Earlier you contested God's face is NOTHING like yours, now He has a face like yours. The more you try to sugar-coat it, the clearer it becomes that human characteristics are attributed to Allah regardless how much you spin it around to mean him having "unique" anthropomorphic characteristics, they are still human characteristics. When was it that you counted Allah had two hands but not more? Yes I thought so.It is a Face unlike any face. You simply fail to understand such a easy and basic idea, that is amazing. God exists and I exist, God has knowledge and I have knowledge, God is alive and I am alive. My understanding of God will only be anthropomorphic (man-like), if I say God exists like I exist, God has knowledge like I have knowledge, God is alive like I am alive, God has Two Hands like I have two hands, God has a Face like I have a face. The key word here is Like. As long as it is affirmed that God is unique in all respects and that there is nothing comparable to His attributes, then one becomes free from anthropomorphism.
It is important to understand that there is a difference between raising a person from the dead and resurrecting a person. Jesus did not resurrect Lazarus. Although not stated in the Bible, Lazarus later died. A person that is resurrected CANNOT DIE AGAIN. That was one of Jesus' main reasons for appearing after His Resurrection -- to show us what awaits us after death. Most of the others mentioned, apart from Jesus himself, were raised from clinical death, as they were all returned to their earthly bodies and carried on with their earthly lives until they died again, this time for keeps. Personally, I usually define this as being raised from the dead, indicating that the previous threads of human life are taken up again. Jesus, however, really died. He did not return to his earthly human life. He was not raised from the dead, but resurrected into his eternal body, which does seem to have been changed in some degree from his appearance during his earthly life, as at times people who knew him well did not recognize him. This is the true resurrection from the dead, in which the weak, earthly body is transformed into a glorious spiritual body, capable of living eternally in the glory of God's direct presence.Lazarus wasn't resurrected from the dead? Prophet Elijah didn't resurrect the dead? I'm surprised how much you so forcefully contradict your own holy scriptures.
So is Mary. But obviously that hasn't stopped you from worshipping her.
So is that why you posted a private message from LLOJ, I guess with that logic, LLOJ declaring himself as a Christian, he is either not a Christian, or you don't know what you are talking about, going around accusing entire Christendom.No I don't realize that. Anyways, my purpose is not to evangelize my own beliefs, as I made that clear from the outset. My purpose is only to answer questions about Islaam, and explain to people why Islaam considers christianity to be worshipping Virgin Mary.
Your case is this "Christians worship idols" "Christianity worships Virgin Mary" That is it. Pretty tough case really.I believe I have already made my case pretty strong and its there for anyone who wants to sincerely reflect on it.
Ethnocentrism is one of the greatest plague of these arrogant muslims, because the only truth to them comes from Muhammad's Islam, these pathetic requests for Christians to pray for truth arrogantly ignore that Christians believe that Christ said in the Scriptures "He is the way and the TRUTH and the LIFE" ...I don't believe arguments can change people's minds, but I believe prayer can. So constantly pray to God to give us guidance and make us realize the truth, if you pray with a pure and sincere heart, than you will definitely reach the truth, because in Islaam it is said that if you walk one step towards Allaah He will come running to you.
Apologizing beforehand justifies breaking the rules ?? That must be islamic thinking then. Now what are you trying to accomplish though?You may not appreciate me discussing about some matters, but others do, I will give example of Lamb who sent the following private message to me (I hope he doesn't mind me making the message public, there is nothing personal in the message, but in case he does object I apologize beforehand and ask him to forgive me):
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