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Im_A

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Why does humanity seem to have an innate desire and need to worship something, or someone? Why is there such a universal religious sense within humanity?
religions fulfill the needs of humanity, in my opinionn by appeasing our existential concerns, fears and needs. we can fulfill any need with anything but that doesn't make right or true.

Isn’t it a bit extreme to assert "God does not exist"? To make such a statement you would have to have complete knowledge and to have been everywhere in the universe. Maybe God dwells somewhere in the universe you don’t know of or have not been to? Is that possible?
without getting into a long response to this, i'll just say this:
you give me one reason to believe in the Babylonian god or gods, the Egyptian god or gods, the pagan god or gods, and if you can convince me that there is even a slight change of their existance, then i'll rethink the existence of Jehovah, the God of the Hebrews.

What about the evidence of design in all of creation? It is obvious that anything that is designed has to have an intelligent creator. For example, a computer never came about by mere accident, but had to have been thought out and planned by an intelligent designer. It is the same with creation, and more so, as the natural world is far more complicated than anything humanity can create.
give one reason why we were designed, or that we were created.

How do you explain the changed lives of millions of people throughout history who testify to a life changing experience with Jesus Christ?
how do you explain the changed lives of millions of people throughout history who testity to a life changing experience from Mohammad, the Buddha?

just because people choose to believe in something and have personal benefit from it, that doesn't mean it is right or true.

How do we account for the historical Person of Jesus Christ? He has made such an impact upon history that we even measure our calendar by Him. 2000 years on and millions still follow Him.
having an impact doesn't mean anything. many people have had a major impact on history. just because people who chose to start measuring our days around a calendar around some jew, that doesn't make the jew the way. remember, there is also a dating process called BCE which seems more neutral. for many years, the egyptian people had major influence on the world. then Rome converted to Christianity and the west got influenced with Christianity. i don't see how this shows any truth about Christianity.

Where does all of the incredibly complex information come from that is stored within DNA? Information doesn’t just appear by itself.
go and read what science has found out. in the meantime, i'll go and try to locate some sites for you to go and look on.

Where does all the matter in the universe come from?
go and research what science has to say on the matter. the information is out there if you look for it. some things may not be answered, but one point will be there regardless of what you find. that doesn't mean there has to be a god there doing it all. some things may just be unknown, or have always been without the help of a creator.
 
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brinny

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usually only the ones of my family members, or when my one of my best friend's mother passed away, but yes.


not too much. words are useless in those circumstances. all i can say is, i'm really sorry about your loss and grieve with them. it does work from time to time without saying things to make them feel better. when my ex-fiancee's mother died while her and i was still together, she asked me what my opinion was of her ever seeing her mom again, and i said, "i don't know." and then she said that was more helpful than all the normal stuff that she hears people say to her. so in a way it taught me a little lesson when it comes to dealing with someone who has had a terrible loss. grieve with them instead of lead them.


well if he was ok with having a beer, i'd offer him a beer from my fridge. so the question would be, "want to have a cold one?"

these multi-quotes don't work for me :doh:

i'm wondering if there's a limit on the kinds of questioning you had in mind when you started the thread. is there?
 
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Eudaimonist

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i'm wondering if there's a limit on the kinds of questioning you had in mind when you started the thread. is there?

Atheists don't usually place limits on questioning. ;)


eudaimonia,

Mark
 
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brinny

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Eudaimonist, i have struggled all my life in one way or the other...but there's been a purpose to it...but i did not see that at the time. If i were suffering or just lost someone, or if i were a mother holding a starving child, dwindling away to nothing, or if i had leprocy, or suffered through a tragic accident losing my legs and arms or if my child was deformed in a way that grieved me to the depths of my very being, or something inexplicably tragic happened that defied logic, but there it was,.........the answers i've seen here do not even begin to offer anything to what i would be experiencing....nothing...

that's why i asked if there is a limit to the questioning......
 
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Eudaimonist

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Why is there such a universal religious sense within humanity?

I don't have a "religious sense", so I doubt that that is universal.

We do have a need to feel passionately about values important to our existence, and when such values are considered to be placed in something divine, it may be experienced as worship.

In my case, I would be willing to call myself a "hero-worshipper", because people who courageously and wisely pursue good values are important to me for inspiration in my own life. I'm using the word "worship" somewhat loosely, since I don't regard heroic individuals as anything greater than human.

Isn’t it a bit extreme to assert "God does not exist"?

It's no more extreme than asserting that God does exist, considering the poor state of the evidence in favor.

Personally, I don't make this assertion except for god-concepts that I judge to be contradictory or incoherent. In all other cases, both known and unknown, I simply say that I don't hold any belief in such gods. My atheism refers to a lack of belief rather than a claim that gods don't exist.

What about the evidence of design in all of creation?

There is none. At least, none that strikes me as persuasive.

It is obvious that anything that is designed has to have an intelligent creator.

Yes, it is obvious because this is true by definition.

However, human beings are not designed. Hence, no intelligent creator.

For example, a computer never came about by mere accident, but had to have been thought out and planned by an intelligent designer.

Computers don't have DNA or reproduce. If they did, it would be a vastly different situation. Computers could have evolved from something much simpler. Complexity can emerge from simplicity through natural processes.

How do you explain the changed lives of millions of people throughout history who testify to a life changing experience with Jesus Christ?

How do you explain all the changed lives due to Buddhism, Hinduism, "The Secret", etc?

Personally, I don't doubt that people's lives are changed by stories and ideas. My life has changed for the better due to my philosophical path.

If you are asking why Christians might experience a rapid change in their personalities, I suspect it has something to do with a quirk in human psychology, although I can't guess what.

How do we account for the historical Person of Jesus Christ?

I lean a bit towards Jesus-mythicism. I don't have to account for Jesus.

But even if I were to grant the existence of an historical Jesus, there are many people who make a big impact on history. Consider other religions, philosophies, and even stories by the Greek poet Homer.

Where does all of the incredibly complex information come from that is stored within DNA? Information doesn’t just appear by itself.

The information is the result of natural selection over vast lengths of time within an environment.

Where does all the matter in the universe come from?

Where does God come from?

The universe began with the big bang.

According to the Big Bang theory. There are other theories.

All the matter in existence, which had been compacted in a tiny ball, explosively flew apart.

No, it wasn't an explosion. It was an inflation of spacetime.

No one knows what caused it,
Perhaps it was kids playing with matches?

What makes you think that no one knows what caused it? I think you should actually read the science.

Have you ever felt a spiritual connection with anything that made you doubt your atheistic outlook?

No, if anything it is the opposite.

My felt spiritual connection is to a potential future self. It's not easy to explain, but when I experience self-actualization, I feel a connection to my personal potentials, as if the way to personal growth is open and I'm almost being pulled along.

Have you been atheist your entire life?

No. I was a believing Catholic as a child. Or at least a half-believing one.

What would it take to instill theism into your being?

A mental breakdown, most likely.


eudaimonia,

Mark
 
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Eudaimonist

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Eudaimonist, i have struggled all my life in one way or the other...but there's been a purpose to it...but i did not see that at the time. If i were suffering or just lost someone, or if i were a mother holding a starving child, dwindling away to nothing, or if i had leprocy, or suffered through a tragic accident losing my legs and arms or if my child was deformed in a way that grieved me to the depths of my very being, or something inexplicably tragic happened that defied logic, but there it was,.........the answers i've seen here do not even begin to offer anything to what i would be experiencing....nothing...

that's why i asked if there is a limit to the questioning......

Okay, brinny. I'm happy that you have found something that makes you happy.

Personally, I would be unsatisfied with your "answers". But that's me.


eudaimonia,

Mark
 
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brinny

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Originally Posted by brinny
Eudaimonist, i have struggled all my life in one way or the other...but there's been a purpose to it...but i did not see that at the time. If i were suffering or just lost someone, or if i were a mother holding a starving child, dwindling away to nothing, or if i had leprocy, or suffered through a tragic accident losing my legs and arms or if my child was deformed in a way that grieved me to the depths of my very being, or something inexplicably tragic happened that defied logic, but there it was,.........the answers i've seen here do not even begin to offer anything to what i would be experiencing....nothing...

that's why i asked if there is a limit to the questioning......

Okay, brinny. I'm happy that you have found something that makes you happy.

Personally, I would be unsatisfied with your "answers". But that's me.


eudaimonia,

Mark

is that how you would respond to me?

:sad:
 
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BlueCelt

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Have you ever felt a spiritual connection with anything that made you doubt your atheistic outlook?

I used to think I had a spiritual connection with the Christian deity and then some connection with some of the Celtic pantheon. I also used to do a lot of drugs that have made me see the same things, feel the same feelings. The mind is a tricky thing. I don't trust connection to some ephemeral thing that I only experience in my head and emotionally.

Have you been atheist your entire life?

No, I was raised protestant Christian and left that at around age 23. I was a general theist for some time after that and then walked the Wiccan path for a while.

What would it take to instill theism into your being?
The doubting Thomas test really. And even there I would need to have it verified by other observers and be recorded so I can assure myself I am not hallucinating.

Best,

Blue
 
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Futuwwa

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Where does God come from?

Honestly, Mark, isn't that a bit of a dishonest reply? I know what you're implying, that certain things just have to exist independently of anything else, and that if God can, so can the universe. But the matter in the universe doesn't, and that much is implied by physics, not philosophy.
 
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Eudaimonist

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is that how you would respond to me?

:sad:

Perhaps I misunderstood you. Were you offering that as a hypothetical person's question? Or were you saying that you personally don't find the posts by atheists helpful to you in dealing with issues of meaning in life?

I am not capable of counseling you on matters pertaining to purpose in life, since we have such different worldviews.

If you had the same worldview as me, I would not ask you to find a cosmic purpose behind tragic events, but to proactively create your own purpose in response to them. Some people take lemons and make lemonaide.


eudaimonia,

Mark
 
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Eudaimonist

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Honestly, Mark, isn't that a bit of a dishonest reply?

Not to my knowledge or intent.

I know what you're implying, that certain things just have to exist independently of anything else, and that if God can, so can the universe. But the matter in the universe doesn't, and that much is implied by physics, not philosophy.

Please explain. I don't see physics saying this.


eudaimonia,

Mark
 
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brinny

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Perhaps I misunderstood you. Were you offering that as a hypothetical person's question? Or were you saying that you personally don't find the posts by atheists helpful to you in dealing with issues of meaning in life?

I am not capable of counseling you on matters pertaining to purpose in life, since we have such different worldviews.

If you had the same worldview as me, I would not ask you to find a cosmic purpose behind tragic events, but to proactively create your own purpose in response to them. Some people take lemons and make lemonaide.


eudaimonia,

Mark

it doesnm't matter about worldview...how would you comfort someone...human beings need that, so do you....you do not have to have the same worldview to be friends or to genuinely care for someone...and if you genuinely care for them, can't you or wouldn't you put yourself in their shoes..
 
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Eudaimonist

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it doesnm't matter about worldview...

I think that matters enormously to my choice of methods of consolation.

how would you comfort someone...

In some cases, with a metaphorical kick to the butt. :)

In other cases, by appealing to values that I know my friend has, but feels out of touch with at the moment.

I would emphasize the value of life, even when tainted with tragedy. I would also seek to inspire a positive attitude and a plan to make the most of one's tragic situation.

I cannot promise that I would be successful in helping someone overcome tragedy. All I could do is to try.

human beings need that, so do you....

Sure.

you do not have to have the same worldview to be friends or to genuinely care for someone...

While true, different worldviews can make friendship difficult, because the two friends won't quite be speaking the same language or seeing a situation in the same way, and they will find it difficult to help each other.

and if you genuinely care for them, can't you or wouldn't you put yourself in their shoes..

I would try, in order to grasp at the right words. However, this would be a problem -- because sincerity would be difficult when speaking about things I don't believe in. I think that this would undermine my attempt.


eudaimonia,

Mark
 
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brinny

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I think that matters enormously to my choice of methods of consolation.



In some cases, with a metaphorical kick to the butt. :)

In other cases, by appealing to values that I know my friend has, but feels out of touch with at the moment.

I would emphasize the value of life, even when tainted with tragedy. I would also seek to inspire a positive attitude and a plan to make the most of one's tragic situation.

I cannot promise that I would be successful in helping someone overcome tragedy. All I could do is to try.



Sure.



While true, different worldviews can make friendship difficult, because the two friends won't quite be speaking the same language or seeing a situation in the same way, and they will find it difficult to help each other.



I would try, in order to grasp at the right words. However, this would be a problem -- because sincerity would be difficult when speaking about things I don't believe in. I think that this would undermine my attempt.


eudaimonia,

Mark

it has nothing to do with what you believe in....if someone's in a deep muddy ditch of despair would you get in there with them until they had the courage to climb out and would you climb out with them, giving them a hand, a final boost, ...then they've got a boost emotionally too and maybe can continue their journey.....could you empathize with someone in a pit that's deeper than deep and they're shut down and feeling alone and hopeless....

i understand my hardships now..it was to develop empathy and to recognize suffering and then do what i could to alleviate it, to right wrongs, to defend the defenseless....nobody wants to be a nail as opposed to the choice of being a hammer or a nail....

empathizing, weeping with someone has nothing to do with beliefs or world view or philosophy.....it has everything to do with feeling for a fellow human being...

Leo Buscaglia...i don't know if he was a Christian or not....he wrote about love and the energy that is generated by it that transcends heaviness...everyone, i don't care who you are, wants a light heart, and can understand that others do,.......

He's deceased, but he left a legacy of love and joy and passion in his stead...he was a professor......one of the assignments he gave his class was to bring autumn leaves into the classroom.....well i'm not telling you the whole story..i think you should read it...

he had idionsyncracies.....he loved leaves...so do i...

in this video, one of my fav'rite parts is the exuberance of this little boy in the leaves..


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NnwQ51Q3pWc
 
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Futuwwa

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Please explain. I don't see physics saying this.

Many things in physics imply that the universe is of finite age, and its existence thus not some fundamental absolute. The Big Bang (which is extremely well-established, and only a question mark with regards to the first 10^-19 seconds of the universe's lifespan) implies as much, that before it, there was nothing, not even empty space, not even nothing. There wasn't even a "before" in anything but a cause-effect sense, since time didn't exist. Then there's the 2nd law of thermodynamics, from which it follows that would the universe be infinitely old, maximum entropy would already have been reached.
 
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Eudaimonist

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Many things in physics imply that the universe is of finite age, and its existence thus not some fundamental absolute. The Big Bang (which is extremely well-established, and only a question mark with regards to the first 10^-19 seconds of the universe's lifespan) implies as much, that before it, there was nothing, not even empty space, not even nothing. There wasn't even a "before" in anything but a cause-effect sense, since time didn't exist. Then there's the 2nd law of thermodynamics, from which it follows that would the universe be infinitely old, maximum entropy would already have been reached.

Then I don't see the problem. A finite age for the universe does not pose any problem for the statement that the universe was not created but has always been in existence as something like a "fundamental absolute".


eudaimonia,

Mark
 
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Eudaimonist

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if someone's in a deep muddy ditch of despair would you get in there with them until they had the courage to climb out and would you climb out with them, giving them a hand, a final boost

I have been in this situation before. And, yes, I did help as much as I could, and for several years.

empathizing, weeping with someone has nothing to do with beliefs or world view or philosophy.....it has everything to do with feeling for a fellow human being...

I do feel for my fellow human beings. :)

Leo Buscaglia... [...] He's deceased

I didn't know that. I'm sorry to hear that.

in this video, one of my fav'rite parts is the exuberance of this little boy in the leaves..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NnwQ51Q3pWc

Thanks for the video. :)


eudaimonia,

Mark
 
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dnihila

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A dodecahedron. Or something else.

They arise in mutual dependence on each other.

Because we aren't color blind.

Because we were lucky enough not to be born with six.

Because they ______________.

Because there is so much water.


eudaimonia,

Mark
You turn the thread into first graders funny questions and funny answers.
And I won't accept the answer about the ants because one of them was the one that recognised prophet Solomn although she was blind.
So, don't make fun of ants because they are smarter than some people.
 
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