Ask God for Me

SPF · Apr 10, 2020

Clizby WampusCat said:
Do you believe I was?

It's not my place to make that sort of judgment, and therefore I don't. I think what's telling is what you believe now about your own experience as a Christian. And now, today, you don't believe God spoke to you, and you don't believe that the Spirit led you, and you don't believe that God convicted you of sin. That's what matters.

Clizby WampusCat said:
I believe the story. Now give me evidence that the god of the bible provided that.

I don't need to, nor am I interested in doing that. It would be enough for me that you acknowledged that God exists. Acknowledging that God exists is the first step, then we can get into specifics about God.

Clizby WampusCat said:
You are making an extraordinary claim and want me to believe on mundane evidence. The honest answer is I don't know until sufficient evidence is found. Why is it more likely that God provided the money over a coincidence or this person could read minds? You think it is more likely because you believe God exists, that is confirmation bias.

I think it's more likely that God exists because the alternative is that some person who hardly knew me randomly decided to give me $2,037. Except that isn't even accurate because they did it because they believed it was the Holy Spirit prompting them. So when I look at the situation as it occurred:

1. My wife and I had needs that equaled $2,037.
2. We didn't share the need with anyone.
3. A person in our community, who we weren't close with was spending time in prayer.
4. As a result of the time they spent in prayer, they believed that God wanted them to give us exactly $2,037.
5. They obeyed and did what they were prompted to do even though they didn't know us well and didn't know our need.

So when I look at what happened, I think the more realistic explanation is that God was involved in the situation. Sure, some person that we didn't know well could have wrongly believed that God was telling them to give us exactly what we needed, but I think that is harder to believe than God being involved.

But of course, as an atheist, you aren't capable of accepting it as a work of God because it would result in a complete paradigm shift of the foundation of your entire worldview.

Clizby WampusCat said:
Please stop putting words in my mouth and telling me what I believe. I believe this happened to you. I am unconvinced it was the God of the bible that healed you. Why not another supernatural explanation or a natural explanation that we don't understand yet. The best answer is "I don't know".

I think "another supernatural" explanation would also mean that there is something beyond the natural, which I didn't think was an acceptable answer for an atheist. But sure, it's altogether possible that my body had some natural, internal healing ability turn on that is currently unknown to the human race and for some unknown, completely natural reason, my body was able to heal 6 fractured bones. Sure, that's possible. Anything's possible, right?

Clizby WampusCat said:
Why don't you believe Musims when they claim Alah healed them after praying to him?

I've never had a Muslim tell me that Allah healed them after they prayed to him. Have you?

Allah is just the Arabic word for God, so I suppose it wouldn't be altogether unfathomable that God might heal a Muslim after they prayed. Granted, I would think that God would have done that in the hope that the Muslim would eventually learn the Truth about Christ. But who am I to say that God can't heal a Muslim?

MrsFoundit · Apr 10, 2020

Clizby WampusCat said:
So you want me to go to hell?

You - "If a Christian who claimed they can talk to God through prayer gets an answer from God that convinced me he exists then I would be a believer. Isn't that what Christians want?"

Me - "In a word, no."

You - "So you want me to go to hell?"

Your part in this exchange requires a lot more information than you have provided. I presently have no idea what part of "no" lead you to ask about my preference for you regarding hell.

MrsFoundit · Apr 10, 2020

Clizby WampusCat said:
Yes, it is surprising to me that theists here are telling me knowing the truth is a bad thing.

Please cite the posts in which theists do any such thing.

Clizby WampusCat said:
Do you want to know what is true over what is false?

This question appears to presume a possibility of "knowing" stuff that is false.

Clizby WampusCat · Apr 10, 2020

SPF said:
It's not my place to make that sort of judgment, and therefore I don't. I think what's telling is what you believe now about your own experience as a Christian. And now, today, you don't believe God spoke to you, and you don't believe that the Spirit led you, and you don't believe that God convicted you of sin. That's what matters.

What is telling?

I don't need to, nor am I interested in doing that. It would be enough for me that you acknowledged that God exists. Acknowledging that God exists is the first step, then we can get into specifics about God.

I think it's more likely that God exists because the alternative is that some person who hardly knew me randomly decided to give me $2,037. Except that isn't even accurate because they did it because they believed it was the Holy Spirit prompting them. So when I look at the situation as it occurred:

1. My wife and I had needs that equaled $2,037.
2. We didn't share the need with anyone.
3. A person in our community, who we weren't close with was spending time in prayer.
4. As a result of the time they spent in prayer, they believed that God wanted them to give us exactly $2,037.
5. They obeyed and did what they were prompted to do even though they didn't know us well and didn't know our need.

So when I look at what happened, I think the more realistic explanation is that God was involved in the situation. Sure, some person that we didn't know well could have wrongly believed that God was telling them to give us exactly what we needed, but I think that is harder to believe than God being involved.

Ok, tat is fine. I disagree that is good evidence to believe the Christian God is the reason especially what you said below about how your God can heal a Muslim. Surely a Muslim can claim that Allah can heal a Christian. This makes no sense.

But of course, as an atheist, you aren't capable of accepting it as a work of God because it would result in a complete paradigm shift of the foundation of your entire worldview.

Atheism is not a worldview. I am capable and I have actually changed my entire belief system after studying on many things.

I think "another supernatural" explanation would also mean that there is something beyond the natural, which I didn't think was an acceptable answer for an atheist.

It is clear you don't understand what atheism is. It is simply a lack of belief in a god (me) or a claim that god does not exist (not me). It is not a worldview or club. Atheists believe wildly different things just like Christians do. Atheism does not preclude believing in the supernatural. Some atheists believe in ghosts, mind reading, Karma etc.

But sure, it's altogether possible that my body had some natural, internal healing ability turn on that is currently unknown to the human race and for some unknown, completely natural reason, my body was able to heal 6 fractured bones. Sure, that's possible. Anything's possible, right?

Nope, not everything is possible. Like it is not possible to use something that has not been demonstrated to exist as a possible explanation for something. God cannot be used as an explanation if it has not been demonstrated to exist. You admitted that faith is a component of belief. The best answer does not mean it is the answer until it has been demonstrated. You have not done that. Just because you cannot think of another answer does not mean there is not one. What is wrong with "I don't know"?

I've never had a Muslim tell me that Allah healed them after they prayed to him. Have you?

Yes. Search the internet there are many examples of this.

Allah is just the Arabic word for God, so I suppose it wouldn't be altogether unfathomable that God might heal a Muslim after they prayed. Granted, I would think that God would have done that in the hope that the Muslim would eventually learn the Truth about Christ. But who am I to say that God can't heal a Muslim?

Your bias is showing. Do you really think that Muslims and Christians are talking about the same God? Also, like I said above, Why can't Allah heal a Christian in the hope that eventually they will see that Allah is the real God? So this line of reasoning is flawed.

Clizby WampusCat · Apr 10, 2020

MrsFoundit said:
Please cite the posts in which theists do any such thing.

#60 And you did in #68.

This question appears to presume a possibility of "knowing" stuff that is false.

Yes, we can know what is false. We can know an infinite amount of things that are false to a high level of certainty.

Clizby WampusCat · Apr 10, 2020

MrsFoundit said:
You - "If a Christian who claimed they can talk to God through prayer gets an answer from God that convinced me he exists then I would be a believer. Isn't that what Christians want?"

Me - "In a word, no."

You - "So you want me to go to hell?"

Your part in this exchange requires a lot more information than you have provided. I presently have no idea what part of "no" lead you to ask about my preference for you regarding hell.

Ok

SPF · Apr 10, 2020

Clizby WampusCat said:
Ok, tat is fine. I disagree that is good evidence to believe the Christian God is the reason especially what you said below about how your God can heal a Muslim. Surely a Muslim can claim that Allah can heal a Christian. This makes no sense.

There's no need to shift the goal post. I have no interest in convincing you that Christianity is true, nor have I tried to. It's enough to get you to the first step of simply acknowledging that God exists.

Clizby WampusCat said:
Atheism is not a worldview. I am capable and I have actually changed my entire belief system after studying on many things.

The foundational belief that all people have which the entirety of their worldview and all subsequent beliefs are hinged on, is, whether or not God exists.

Clizby WampusCat said:
Your bias is showing. Do you really think that Muslims and Christians are talking about the same God? Also, like I said above, Why can't Allah heal a Christian in the hope that eventually they will see that Allah is the real God? So this line of reasoning is flawed.

And your bias has been glaring. Again, I'm not interested in arguing for any specific God. I'm not sure why you keep thinking I am.

Clizby WampusCat said:
I disagree that is good evidence to believe the Christian God is the reason

So enlighten me, what do you think is the most likely explanation?

1. My wife and I had needs that equaled $2,037.
2. We didn't share the need with anyone.
3. A person in our community, who we weren't close with was spending time in prayer.
4. As a result of the time they spent in prayer, they believed that God wanted them to give us exactly $2,037.
5. They obeyed and did what they were prompted to do even though they didn't know us well and didn't know our need.

The above is what happened. So given what happened, go ahead and give me a plausible, rational explanation that doesn't involve God. I would like to know what makes more sense to you than God in this situation. Come up with something.

Clizby WampusCat · Apr 10, 2020

SPF said:
There's no need to shift the goal post. I have no interest in convincing you that Christianity is true, nor have I tried to. It's enough to get you to the first step of simply acknowledging that God exists.

Ok. Just supply sufficient evidence.

The foundational belief that all people have which the entirety of their worldview and all subsequent beliefs are hinged on, is, whether or not God exists.

Nope. My other beliefs do not hinge on my atheism. Like I said and you ignored some atheists believe in the supernatural. God is not the default position, atheism is. If there was sufficient evidence that mind reading was real I would believe it for example. Each belief needs to have its own evidence to be believed. It is you that won't believe anything that does not fit within your God belief.

And your bias has been glaring. Again, I'm not interested in arguing for any specific God. I'm not sure why you keep thinking I am.

You gave specific examples from your life. Do you believe it was a general God that healed your foot? No, you believe it was the christian God.

So enlighten me, what do you think is the most likely explanation?

1. My wife and I had needs that equaled $2,037.
2. We didn't share the need with anyone.
3. A person in our community, who we weren't close with was spending time in prayer.
4. As a result of the time they spent in prayer, they believed that God wanted them to give us exactly $2,037.
5. They obeyed and did what they were prompted to do even though they didn't know us well and didn't know our need.

The above is what happened. So given what happened, go ahead and give me a plausible, rational explanation that doesn't involve God. I would like to know what makes more sense to you than God in this situation. Come up with something.

I don't need to, I am not claiming it is a different explanation, I am saying there is insufficient evidence to believe it was a God. I am in the "I don't know" position.

Jok · Apr 10, 2020

Clizby WampusCat said:
Why would I become a deist when I am not convinced that there is sufficient evidence to believe a God exists?

So the poor apologist arguments that you speak of, did they only convince you that Christianity was true and therefore you just leapfrogged over the general existence of God arguments altogether right into theism, or are you saying that apologists also convinced you of the general existence of God (first), but now you consider both their arguments for Jesus AND their general arguments for God as faulty logic?

MrsFoundit · Apr 10, 2020

Clizby WampusCat said:
We can know an infinite amount of things that are false to a high level of certainty.

You have failed to explain the concept of people "knowing things" that are false.
You would now also need to add an explanation as to how you ascertain level of certainty and provide some support for your claim that the human capacity for all this is infinite.

SPF · Apr 10, 2020

Clizby WampusCat said:
It is you that won't believe anything that does not fit within your God belief.

Well, according to you I'm incapable of believing otherwise at the moment because I haven't been given sufficient evidence to contradict my current worldview. You say that as if I have a choice in what I believe.

Clizby WampusCat said:
You gave specific examples from your life. Do you believe it was a general God that healed your foot? No, you believe it was the christian God.

Of course I do, but that isn't important in relation to what you believe about the event and whether or not God is a plausible explanation. You can choose to believe that the God of Islam, or the God of whatever is a more likely explanation, as long as you recognize that it was at least God.

When I look at that event, I certainly see God as the most likely explanation.

1. I was planning on going on a mission trip to Brazil.
2. While coaching soccer, my assistant coach came running full tilt at the ball that was coming out of bounds to where I was, he, in his metal cleats, came down on my bare foot, crushing the whole right side of my right foot. Massive swelling, x-rays revealed 6 small fractures.
3. I was told I wouldn't be able to walk for a few weeks, and would not be able to go to Brazil.
4. That evening, my team prayed for my foot.
5. When I woke up, the swelling was gone, the pain was gone, I was able to walk fully on my foot. Going back to the doctor, he took x-rays and said my foot was fine.

The above is what happened. You're welcome to disregard the story as fake, or cry foul because I didn't save the x-rays, I'm pretty much expecting that from you at this point as you are no longer coming across in the least bit as someone who's actually genuinely seeking (sorry, but it's true).

For me though, given the above, I certainly think that God healing my foot is the most plausible, rational, and likely answer. Yes, it is possible that when I went to bed, my body triggered some currently unknown super-human healing powers and the bones magically healed themselves, and the swelling magically went away. But frankly, I think it takes more faith to look at that situation and think it wasn't God, then it was God.

Clizby WampusCat said:
I don't need to, I am not claiming it is a different explanation, I am saying there is insufficient evidence to believe it was a God. I am in the "I don't know" position.

Well, again, this is telling. You won't even entertain the idea, engage in the thought exercise, and try to come up with another plausible explanation. I understand why you won't, it makes sense - you can't. And the fact that you refuse to even try is once again, telling.

Feel free to get in your last words, clearly there is nothing I'm capable of saying that can get you to entertain the idea that God might exist. You've blown off my examples without a second thought, you've refused to actually sit and process through them.

Again, based upon what you've said in this thread and others, I don't think there actually is anything anyone can say that would suffice as "good enough" evidence for you to consider that God exists. I do hope you find your time machine so you can go back and physically see the resurrected Jesus.

MrsFoundit · Apr 10, 2020

bling said:
Be careful, knowledge of the Christian God's existence, can be truly depressing for some and up setting since they do not like the Christian God, as they read of Him in scripture. If you really believed you were hell bound would that be comforting to you? You might be better off not knowing?

MrsFoundit said:
Why is it a good thing? Are you sure it is a good thing?

You are attempting to support the claim "theists here are telling me knowing the truth is a bad thing." Neither of these quotes support your claim at all.

Ed1wolf · Apr 10, 2020

Tinker Grey said:
If I don't believe, your god failed. He's either not omnipotent, not omniscient, not benevolent, or not.

Either one is convinced or one is not. There is no refuse.

Just because you refuse to be convinced does not mean He is not those things. He created us as free will beings.

Ed1wolf · Apr 10, 2020

Clizby WampusCat said:
Sort of. I don't know all the evidence that could be out there that I have not seen that might convince me. But in the end I will either be convinced or not.

Do you believe Dark matter exists? If so, why? What convinced you of the existence of dark matter?

Tinker Grey · Apr 11, 2020

Ed1wolf said:
Just because you refuse to be convinced does not mean He is not those things. He created us as free will beings.

Can your god convince me to not refuse? Apparently not.

And don't impugn my character. I don't refuse evidence.

muichimotsu · Apr 11, 2020

Ed1wolf said:
Just because you refuse to be convinced does not mean He is not those things. He created us as free will beings.

But God created humanity knowing the likelihood that most would not believe the precise way it wants us to (assuming this God functions in that manner and not through universal reconciliation or some variant where it actually might care about our hearts and not just a particular belief about scapegoating and sin), so God arguably has primary responsibility in the same vein as a man constantly having unprotected sex and then siring a bunch of children that they just refuse to acknowledge (by changing their identity or other tactics).

Except God is supposed to be all knowing and all powerful, so it could create a situation where our freewill is respected as a matter of respecting our autonomy and ALSO respecting our freedom to the extent that we are not punished merely because we are imperfect (as God would know) and must believe in the scapegoating for sin and such)

Clizby WampusCat · Apr 11, 2020

MrsFoundit said:
You have failed to explain the concept of people "knowing things" that are false.

1+1=3
1+1=4
1+1=5
1+1=6
1+1=7
etc. etc. ect. These are all false or do you not think you can know these are false? There are an infinite amount of false answers for the 1+1=2. Of course we cannot know anything with 100% certainty but generally when we say we know things we are saying we have a high level of certainty that it is true.

You would now also need to add an explanation as to how you ascertain level of certainty and provide some support for your claim that the human capacity for all this is infinite.

Level of certainty is demonstrated by good evidence and is subjective. I bet you have a higher level of certainty of what your name is than you do for what my name is.

Clizby WampusCat · Apr 11, 2020

SPF said:
Well, according to you I'm incapable of believing otherwise at the moment because I haven't been given sufficient evidence to contradict my current worldview. You say that as if I have a choice in what I believe.

You have a choice in as far as how you determine truth and what standard of evidence you need to believe something.

Of course I do, but that isn't important in relation to what you believe about the event and whether or not God is a plausible explanation. You can choose to believe that the God of Islam, or the God of whatever is a more likely explanation, as long as you recognize that it was at least God.

I cannot choose to believe anything, but my point still stands, you cannot know if it is the Christian God that healed you or Allah. You admitted this yourself as I pointed out.

When I look at that event, I certainly see God as the most likely explanation.

The most likely explanation has nothing to do with what the explanation actually is. With this logic you cannot believe in the virgin birth becasue the best explanation is that Mary and Joseph or someone else had sex.

1. I was planning on going on a mission trip to Brazil.
2. While coaching soccer, my assistant coach came running full tilt at the ball that was coming out of bounds to where I was, he, in his metal cleats, came down on my bare foot, crushing the whole right side of my right foot. Massive swelling, x-rays revealed 6 small fractures.
3. I was told I wouldn't be able to walk for a few weeks, and would not be able to go to Brazil.
4. That evening, my team prayed for my foot.
5. When I woke up, the swelling was gone, the pain was gone, I was able to walk fully on my foot. Going back to the doctor, he took x-rays and said my foot was fine.

The above is what happened. You're welcome to disregard the story as fake, or cry foul because I didn't save the x-rays, I'm pretty much expecting that from you at this point as you are no longer coming across in the least bit as someone who's actually genuinely seeking (sorry, but it's true).

For me though, given the above, I certainly think that God healing my foot is the most plausible, rational, and likely answer. Yes, it is possible that when I went to bed, my body triggered some currently unknown super-human healing powers and the bones magically healed themselves, and the swelling magically went away. But frankly, I think it takes more faith to look at that situation and think it wasn't God, then it was God.

That which cannot be shown to exist cannot be the explanation for anything.

Well, again, this is telling. You won't even entertain the idea, engage in the thought exercise, and try to come up with another plausible explanation. I understand why you won't, it makes sense - you can't. And the fact that you refuse to even try is once again, telling.

No, you are lying again. My explanation is "I don't know".

Feel free to get in your last words, clearly there is nothing I'm capable of saying that can get you to entertain the idea that God might exist. You've blown off my examples without a second thought, you've refused to actually sit and process through them.

More false accusations. I have always stated that I lack a belief that god exists. I am open to the idea that He does exist because I cannot rule it out as a possibility.

Again, based upon what you've said in this thread and others, I don't think there actually is anything anyone can say that would suffice as "good enough" evidence for you to consider that God exists. I do hope you find your time machine so you can go back and physically see the resurrected Jesus.

Whatever. Why not engage in what I said instead of accusing me of being dishonest.

Also, it is telling that you believe in a god that will perform miracles for you of giving you money and healing your foot that if he did not perform these miracles you would have been perfectly fine. At the same time your god is giving you money he is letting 8 year old's die of cancer etc. Your arrogance is staggering and your god is performing the wrong miracles.

Clizby WampusCat · Apr 11, 2020

Jok said:
So the poor apologist arguments that you speak of, did they only convince you that Christianity was true and therefore you just leapfrogged over the general existence of God arguments altogether right into theism, or are you saying that apologists also convinced you of the general existence of God (first), but now you consider both their arguments for Jesus AND their general arguments for God as faulty logic?

I was convinced that the Christian god was the only god, so I believed god existed and in Christianity at the same time. And yes, I believe that the arguments for a god and the christian god are unconvincing when studied.

Clizby WampusCat · Apr 11, 2020

Ed1wolf said:
Do you believe Dark matter exists? If so, why? What convinced you of the existence of dark matter?

I believe it is the best explanation of the facts at the moment. But to say I believe it actually exists is maybe a stretch. I would say I don't know but the physics points to its existence.

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