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As A Christian How Can You Vote For Obama?

cow451

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Reading these threads I see that some of you are voting for Obama. As a Christian how can you support a pro-abortion, pro-gay marriage proponent?

I go to the voting booth, fill in the circle beside the name of Barack Obama, Democrat.

I don't vote vote based on theology. Otherwise I could not vote for the GOP candidate whose religion believes that "traditional marriage" means a union between a man and a woman and another woman and another woman....

Romney's record and recent statements are clear that anything he does for abortion is lip service. At least President Obama is clear about his position.

The only way gay marriage would threaten my traditional marriage would be if my wife ran away to get married to some woman in Massachusetts (doesn't Romney have some history there?). BTW, marriage laws are decided by states, not the White House.

I can go on, but let me just ask how you can get on such a high horse without a nose bleed.:preach: Any questions?
 
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OzSpen

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I know I just do not want to stand before God someday and try to explain WHY I supported a pro abortion, pro gay marriage, president.
I'm an outsider who will not be voting in your election.

However, I have a question about a vote for Romney who is anti-abortion, anti-homosexual marriage, but he worships a totally different Mormon god.

I know his abortion policy is consistent with an evangelical Christian worldview, but if he believes in polygamy, he is not supporting a biblical view. However, his god is not the trinitarian Lord God almighty.

Is there any tension in your choice?

Oz
 
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pgp_protector

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You do understand that the president doesn't actually have the authority to do anything about abortion, right?

But it makes such good political fodder for sheeple to fight over. :)
 
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HalupkiMonster

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I believe in helping the poor, clothing the naked, and feeding the hungry. It is time for the state to intervene, as private corporations are only getting richer while people are starving and dirt poor. I support Obama, and he'll get my vote. I believe that the choice to abort a child is between a woman and God. I see nothing wrong with gay marriage, as long as religious institutions aren't required to preform them if they object.
 
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Hupomone10

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I'm an outsider who will not be voting in your election.

However, I have a question about a vote for Romney who is anti-abortion, anti-homosexual marriage, but he worships a totally different Mormon god.

I know his abortion policy is consistent with an evangelical Christian worldview, but if he believes in polygamy, he is not supporting a biblical view. However, his god is not the trinitarian Lord God almighty.

Is there any tension in your choice?

Oz
If I understand you right, Yes.

 
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Water Walker

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Well I don't understand you guys south of the boarder at all, when it comes to how you view your faith and your country and at times it looks like the lines get blurred when one talks of God and country.
Any one in politics will say anything to get a vote, and in your country they play the christian vote card when necessary.
 
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Publius

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I believe in helping the poor, clothing the naked, and feeding the hungry.

So do we. We just believe in doing it legally and doing it the way Christ said we're to do it.

It is time for the state to intervene, as private corporations are only getting richer while people are starving and dirt poor. I support Obama, and he'll get my vote.

I find this really ironic, since, under the Obama debacle, the gap between rich and poor actually grew. That is, for the first time, the liberal mantra of "the rich get richer and the poor get poorer" actually happened in real life. So, clearly, you're OK with four more years of this.

I believe that the choice to abort a child is between a woman and God.

How about the choice to kill a five year old? Or how about the choice to kill a crippled person?

I see nothing wrong with gay marriage, as long as religious institutions aren't required to preform them if they object.

How is it "marriage"?
 
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dies-l

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As far as I can tell this thread is focused on two issues:

1. Gay marriage and
2. Abortion

Gay marriage will and should ultimately be decided by the 9th, 10th, and 14th Amendments to the Constitution, not the will of Federal Government. You cannot reasonably read the Constitution and believe that the Federal government has any source of power to decide the issue. Some would argue that it is an issue of States' rights. Others would argue that it is an issue of Equal Protection. I stay out of that debate, as there are strengths and weaknesses to each argument, but comment only to say that Obama's opinion of SSM is irrelevant to whether I can vote for him as a Christian.

Abortion has been held consistently by the Supreme Court to be a constitutionally protected activity for the past 40 years. Personally, I disagree with that line of Court holdings, but I can't help but notice that even Conservative legal experts like Justice Scalia indicate that at some point that precedent becomes so well entrenched into our constitutional understanding that it would be downright unethical and irresponsible for the Court to reverse course. One would think that 40 years of precedent would outweigh the political leanings of whoever Romney or Obama might appoint to the Court. That said, if there were a firmly pro-life candidate, I would strongly consider supporting him or her, keeping in mind that pro-life is not just anti-abortion. As it stands, given the constitutional landscape, the best remedy for the abortion issue is not attempting to legislate abortion, but to ensure that the poor are able to care for their children and to encourage a culture of adoption and other alternatives to abortion. Personally, I believe that Democrats have done as good or better at this than have Republicans.

But, let's consider that these are not the only two issues, and in fact these are two issues over which the POTUS has little or no direct impact. What we have is two fundamentally different views on how to help the American people.

One view says make sure that the wealthy have as few obstacles in their path so that they can become wealthier, which will hopefully create more jobs, which will hopefully reduce unemployment and thereby help the poor. The same view says that the role of government is to stay out of the way and let the haves do as they will, because they will generally do a better job of helping the poor than the government can. The problem is that this doesn't work to the benefit of Americans. Sure rural Chinese people who get a new American factory in their backyard might have a new source of jobs, but this offers little or no relief to low and middle income Americans.

The other view that it is a fundamental responsibility of a wealthy nation to ensure that individuals within its ranks have access to basic life necessities and that, because individuals are largely self-serving, the proper vehicle for achieving that goal is government. It is a view that says that we cannot be at our best while certain individuals among us do not have access to food, clothing, or basic medical care.

The former says the best way to help the poor is to feed the rich. The other says that the best way to help everyone is to ensure that everyone has the means to meet their basic needs. A gross oversimplification I know, but so is the OP. Both candidates have their flaws, but looking at the big picture, as a Christian it is absolutely clear to me that Obama is BY FAR the lesser of two evils.
 
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FreeinChrist

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UPDATE: This thread has gone through a cleaning and is being reopened. It is quite possible a further cleaning will take place. If you notice a post of yours missing it was removed in the clean up. STOP with the Flaming!!! If it continues this thread can and will be closed permanently.

Documentation of thread clean up is HEREfor staff only.
 
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Lik3

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I like the idea of the write-in candidate, but I know that there are people who are Independent and running. Both candidates don't seem like true Christians though I rather they are true Christians who love the Lord and abide in the truth. Leaders regardless of their personality do have an influence as to what goes on in a nation. However, I vote on the issues, including character. Not only do I ask what is that person like, but what are the issues that person holds that are closer to my beliefs and has he practiced those beliefs or has he contradicted himself. I don't want to say all politicians lie at all, but I do wonder sometimes who is the lesser of two evils between Romney and Obama?
 
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Bella Vita

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I will not be voting for Obama for a lot of reasons but on big one is because my family owns a small business. And we calculated with his plan that we will be paying 44% in taxes alone next year with all of Obama's programs. No thank you that will sink so many small businesses I can't support that.
 
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ByronArn

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As far as I can tell this thread is focused on two issues:

1. Gay marriage and
2. Abortion

Gay marriage will and should ultimately be decided by the 9th, 10th, and 14th Amendments to the Constitution, not the will of Federal Government. You cannot reasonably read the Constitution and believe that the Federal government has any source of power to decide the issue. Some would argue that it is an issue of States' rights. Others would argue that it is an issue of Equal Protection. I stay out of that debate, as there are strengths and weaknesses to each argument, but comment only to say that Obama's opinion of SSM is irrelevant to whether I can vote for him as a Christian.

Abortion has been held consistently by the Supreme Court to be a constitutionally protected activity for the past 40 years. Personally, I disagree with that line of Court holdings, but I can't help but notice that even Conservative legal experts like Justice Scalia indicate that at some point that precedent becomes so well entrenched into our constitutional understanding that it would be downright unethical and irresponsible for the Court to reverse course. One would think that 40 years of precedent would outweigh the political leanings of whoever Romney or Obama might appoint to the Court. That said, if there were a firmly pro-life candidate, I would strongly consider supporting him or her, keeping in mind that pro-life is not just anti-abortion. As it stands, given the constitutional landscape, the best remedy for the abortion issue is not attempting to legislate abortion, but to ensure that the poor are able to care for their children and to encourage a culture of adoption and other alternatives to abortion. Personally, I believe that Democrats have done as good or better at this than have Republicans.

But, let's consider that these are not the only two issues, and in fact these are two issues over which the POTUS has little or no direct impact. What we have is two fundamentally different views on how to help the American people.

One view says make sure that the wealthy have as few obstacles in their path so that they can become wealthier, which will hopefully create more jobs, which will hopefully reduce unemployment and thereby help the poor. The same view says that the role of government is to stay out of the way and let the haves do as they will, because they will generally do a better job of helping the poor than the government can. The problem is that this doesn't work to the benefit of Americans. Sure rural Chinese people who get a new American factory in their backyard might have a new source of jobs, but this offers little or no relief to low and middle income Americans.

The other view that it is a fundamental responsibility of a wealthy nation to ensure that individuals within its ranks have access to basic life necessities and that, because individuals are largely self-serving, the proper vehicle for achieving that goal is government. It is a view that says that we cannot be at our best while certain individuals among us do not have access to food, clothing, or basic medical care.

The former says the best way to help the poor is to feed the rich. The other says that the best way to help everyone is to ensure that everyone has the means to meet their basic needs. A gross oversimplification I know, but so is the OP. Both candidates have their flaws, but looking at the big picture, as a Christian it is absolutely clear to me that Obama is BY FAR the lesser of two evils.

This was pretty much what I was going to say, but said a lot more eloquently, so I will just quote this and say that I mostly agree. :)
 
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If Not For Grace

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Reading these threads I see that some of you are voting for Obama. As a Christian how can you support a pro-abortion, pro-gay marriage proponent?

Romney had the same platform when he was running for governor of MA. So there is no difference in voting for Obama or Romney-the only choice is a write in or one of the independants if those issues bother you.

So what's a sista to do? I personally and voting independent-I don't like all the choices there either but for me I can not support the frontrunners since I believe them BOTH to be outright liars.
 
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Hupomone10

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The facts tell a story, don't they brother? :thumbsup:


LIES BY OBAMA AND HIS VP

1) BIDEN: Look, I was there when we did that with Social Security in 1983. I was one of eight people sitting in the room that included Tip O’Neill associating with President Reagan.

GLENN: Okay. Now he was talking about how great President Reagan was. First of all, Joe Biden never thought President Reagan was great. I mean, these guys hated him when he was in office. But he’s specifically talking about how great Reagan is and how we need to get together, and he was, as he just said, in the room. Now, I should mention here that even as a ‑‑ even as cynical as I have become about these progressive politicians, I took Biden at his word on that. And who would say that? “I was there.” Okay, then you can dance around it. But then he followed up, “I was in the room with about eight people when we did this.” Fortunately ABC’s Jake Tapper didn’t take him at word. Jake looked into it and found out that, yes, Joe Biden was not in the room. He lied. He wasn’t in the room working out that deal. He was not one of the key negotiators. Tapper called Biden on it, caught him in his bold‑face lie and how did he respond? This is what the office said: In 1983 the then Senator Biden was one of many senators who weighed in on budget‑related issues from the party leadership including on Social Security reform. In particular he was one of the group of members who met with Tip O’Neill while the speaker was negotiating with President Reagan on reform specifics. In those meetings the vice president, other members gave their thoughts on the negotiations to the speaker and the Senate majority leader ‑‑ or minority leader Robert Byrd.

2) Obama claimed he did not cut permits and licenses for oil and gas leases on federal land and federal waters in half.

After Obama called Romney a liar for bringing up the figure, Chris Wallace found out Romney was right but only after the debate was over.

3) Obama’s campaign claimed Romney was planning a $5 trillion tax cut for the wealthy.

Stephanie Cutter has come out and admitted this is untrue.

4) OBAMA: “ We stabilized the banking system but we got back every dime we used to rescue the banks with interest.”

GLENN: Did we really? Because according to the Congressional Budget Office we’re losing $24 billion on that deal. The same day he said that, the CBO comes out and says we’ve lost $24 billion. That’s a lot of dimes, Mr. President.

5) OBAMA: “Under Governor Romney’s definition, there are a whole bunch of millionaires and billionaires who are small businesses. Donald Trump is a small business.”

GLENN: No, Mr. President, Donald Trump has upwards of 25,000 employees, or more. His revenue and his other millionaires and billionaires receive ‑‑ the revenues that he receives makes him ineligible for this. Another lie. The president told Univision that he inherited the scandalous, deadly, and disastrous Fast and Furious program.

I suppose the response from those who are Obama-supporters regardless of the evidence or performance will proceed to now attack Glenn Beck rather than deal with the lies and attempt to show that they are instead truth. If I were a defender of Obama, I suppose I might also...

here
 
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Hupomone10

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6) OBAMA: First of all, I think it’s important for us to understand that the Fast and Furious program was a field‑initiated program begun under the previous administration. When Eric Holder found out about it, he discontinued it.

GLENN: This is an outrageous lie, according to ABC News. ABC reports in actuality the Fast and Furious program was started October 2009. October 2009. That’s the year the president got in. Bush’s last day ended in ’08. Instead Obama claims Bush started it, Holder discovered it and stopped it. Instead of beginning the plan in 2009? What? What an outrageous lie. How the media is not all over this administration for this, how the media thinks this ends up well for them or for any American, you cannot allow somebody with this much power to out‑and‑out lie over and over and outrageous lies.

7) Benghazi – PRETTY MUCH EVERYTHING

GLENN: And let me end this with another hugely important lie. In addition to all the campaign and debate lies and quite honestly nearly everything that he says on the campaign trail about himself or Romney has been a lie. But all of ‑‑ in addition to all of that, this president has betrayed the sacred trust placed in him by the American people and has lied over and over again about the Benghazi tragedy. And this is so incredibly important. It may not be the sexiest story. It may not be the one that everybody is talking about, but what is happening over in the Middle East, especially the way it relates to Benghazi, is so critically important because the lies are covering what we’re really doing over there. It is so critically important. Hear me, people of the left. Hear me, please hear me, Democrats. We are not divided on the war thing. We’re not. We’re not on opposite sides. You don’t want another war; I don’t want another war. You don’t want American soldiers killed; I don’t want American soldiers killed. I’m tired of the war, too. What is happening, they are sucking us into a global, a global war.

There was a predator drone flying over the embassy that night beaming a live feedback to the United States. Are you really going to tell us that you didn’t know that there was no protest? You didn’t know exactly what this was? You had a drone. It’s been verified, with a live feed showing the firefight. You knew exactly what was going on.

Mr. President, in the situation room, I don’t know if you’ve ever been there, but underneath your office is a room called the situation room where you can watch those live feeds. Somebody in your office was downstairs in the basement watching the feed! Somebody was there. Now why they didn’t brief you is beyond me. Some might say that they did and you had been lying. And that someone is me. They said it was a protest gone wrong. You knew it was a lie. There was no protest. You said it was about a YouTube video, unprecedented, coordinated attack. You knew that that was a lie. They said they didn’t know about all the requests for extra help and security. We know that that is a lie. This is why Romney is going to win.

 
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Hupomone10

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Claim:“I told you I’d cut taxes for small businesses, and I have.”—President Obama, October 16, 2012.



Reality: In the same venue where he made this claim, the president reiterated his perpetual call for devastating tax increases on American small businesses. A report released by the accounting firm Ernst & Young found that the president’s proposed small business tax increase will cost 710,000 American jobs. In addition, the report found that wages would fall by 1.8 percent, reflecting a decline in workers’ living standards relative to what would have occurred otherwise.

If the president has relieved small businesses’ tax burden, it’s news to them. This month, small businesses cited taxes as the single most important problem they are facing today. Not surprisingly, 77 percent of small business owners report that they did not hire any new employees in the month of September. The president’s tax and regulatory regime is destroying small business, not helping it. A recent survey from the National Association of Manufacturers (NAM) and the National Federation of Independent Business (NFIB) revealed that 69 percent of small business owners and manufacturers say President Obama’s Executive Branch and regulatory policies have hurt American small businesses and manufacturers. In addition, 67 percent say there is too much uncertainty in the market today to expand, grow or hire new workers. Perhaps most shockingly, 55 percent of small business owners say they would not start a business today given what they know now and in the current environment.

Claim: “Well, we’ve gone through a tough four years; there’s no doubt about it. But four years ago I told the American people and I told you I would cut taxes for middle-class families, and I did.”—President Obama, October 16, 2012.



Reality: President Obama has never proposed lowering income tax rates for middle-class families, as House Republicans have already voted for in the Path to Prosperity Budget. While Republicans have voted to provide permanent income tax relief for middle-class Americans, the president has broken his campaign promise and passed permanent tax increases on the middle-class. While the Democrats’ failed “stimulus” did include temporary tax credits for the middle-class, those provisions have largely expired. Even when they were in place, the temporary credits failed to give hardworking families any certainty about their tax liability from one year to the next. The only thing that the middle-class can be certain of now is that President Obama has broken the promise he made when he said in 2008, “I can make a firm pledge. Under my plan, no family making less than $250,000 a year will see any form of tax increase.” Sadly, the president’s healthcare takeover law contained 12 tax increases that will hit middle-class families, including the onerous individual mandate tax.



Claim: “We’ve got to reduce our deficit, but we’ve got to do it in a balanced way — asking the wealthy to pay a little bit more.”— President Obama, October 16, 2012.



Reality: While the president’s plan increases taxes on nearly one million small businesses, it does essentially nothing to reduce the deficit because the president plans to pump the new tax income into more wastefully Washington spending. Even with the president’s proposed tax hike, deficits would average $715 billion a year during a second Obama term, according the president’s own budget projections. With the president’s job-destroying tax increases, the White House still plans to increase the national debt by $4.1 trillion in his second term. The problem is that the president wants to take money from small businesses and families in order to keep his failed spending spree going. Our debt and deficits are fueled because Washington is wastefully spending too much money, not because we are taxing small businesses too little. President Obama’s tax hikes will not change the way he recklessly borrows and spends money, therefore, they will not reduce our debt.

I suppose the Ostrich's in the crowd will now attack my source, rather than support why these are not facts. If I was an ostrich, I suppose I might, too...


Source
 
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NadineWoods

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... because individuals are largely self-serving, the proper vehicle for achieving that goal is government.

This statement is specifically why I will choose to vote republican. Individuals are largely self-serving , and they will most certainly take advantage of any government handout possible whether they need it or not justifying their actions because they believe everyone has more than they do. Couple that thought with the fact that big government seems to have zero accountability. People in government don’t seem to feel accountable for their own actions, and they fail to make people within these handout programs accountable either. (In the last debate even President Obama side stepped the question about who chose to deny funding for more security in Libya. While Hillary Clinton personally accepted responsibility, she didn’t admit to making the decision either.)

As to helping the poor, what I have found to be true in my personal experience is that the people who most need the help are always the last ones to ask for it. And the first people in line with their hands out aren’t the ones who truly need help. I believe charitable organizations are more likely to get the needed goods into the hands of those that need them most. Since they have limited funds, they make sure that their resources are all being used wisely.

I know you believe that people don’t give enough to charitable organizations to truly cover the costs of helping those in needs, and I would agree with you. However, most people feel their tax dollars are already helping the needy, so they are less willing to help. If they know someone is truly in need or deserving of help they will step up to the plate. Think of the bus monitor who was bullied by those students; people send hundreds of thousands of dollars to her. People have just personally witnessed so much abuse of social programs that they are gun shy. When they see real need, however, they will be there. Consider the response to natural disasters.

If we were to place all the monies now being spent on social programs, as well as all the administrative expenses and waste back in the taxpayers hands, what might happen? While not all of those monies would find their way into charitable organizations, enough money would be channeled into them to provide a network of services that would adequately serves the needs of the poor. Not only that, but many of those poor would have their first chance to see the gospel in action, maybe even hear it.

While surfing the channels, I caught some of John Stossel on Fox News last week, at least I think it was last week. I think it was titled something like “America Funds Dependency.” I have always been a fan of John Stossel and miss him not being on network TV. Anyway, I tuned in and so wish everyone could have seen this show. The gist being that government programs are sometimes extremely ineffective. He also talked about various charitable programs that were in place prior to the government’s involvement in social welfare and how effective they were. If you had watched this piece you would realize that people themselves can do a better job than the government.

My biggest concern is that people are being conditioned to depend on the government for everything instead of their creator. Humility is an essential requirement for obtaining everlasting life, for we cannot obtain everlasting life unless we can acknowledge our need for a Savior. If we as a nation guarantee a good quality of life for everyone, how will they ever depend on Him?

Given that Romney far outspent Obama in charitable giving both in percentage and dollar amount, it seems that he also believes that people can do better than government. Delegating our responsibility to serve our brother to the government seems a whole lot easier than doing it ourselves, but that doesn’t make it the best way.
 
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