Article: what is wrong the substitutionary theory of atonement.

[StormyOne]

I am having difficulty finding the logic in your comments. Are you suggesting that the Creator must have written the Bible for the Bible to exist? What does the existence of the Bible have to do with authority? Are you suggesting that no personal authority existed before the Bible was written?

makes you wonder how all those folks before a bible existed interacted with the Creator.... but then again it is possible that some people only experience God via reading about him.... makes for an interesting relationship and goes contrary to what the bible says about how God wishes to interact.... what would that be called?

 

[Adventtruth]

makes you wonder how all those folks before a bible existed interacted with the Creator.... but then again it is possible that some people only experience God via reading about him.... makes for an interesting relationship and goes contrary to what the bible says about how God wishes to interact.... what would that be called?

All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.​

http://christianforums.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=47942181#_ftn1http://christianforums.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=47942181#_ftnref1
(2 Ti 3:16-17).


Stormy...just wondering if You believe this passage?


AT

 

[sentipente]

All scripture is given by inspiration of God, AT​

​

ALL: Have you read ALL Scripture? Have you even found ALL Scripture? How do you know when you have found ALL Scripture? ALL cannot mean some.

Given: There is difference between "given" and "received." There is a further difference between "received" and "communicated." How do you ensure that what was "given" is what was "communicated?" Was it given to you?"

I look forward to your erudite responses.

 

[JohnT]

Thank you for calling me insane, I have been called worse... ....

Stormy, I described your position, NOT your person. Big difference.

I described it as neither consistent nor systematic.

I'll add that it does not conform to any of the SDA fundamental beliefs.

Based upon that, I came to my probable conclusion, leaving room to be wrong by using the word "may".

BTW What is this CLAY quote? From where does it come?

 

[Adventtruth]

How about these...do you believe them?

Jesus said, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but through Me” (John 14:6, NASB)

and,

“For unless you believe that I am He, you shall die in your sins” (John 8:24, NASB).

AThttp://christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=47942665#_ftn1
http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=47942665#_ftnref1

 

[Adventtruth]

[/left]
ALL: Have you read ALL Scripture? Have you even found ALL Scripture? How do you know when you have found ALL Scripture? ALL cannot mean some.

Given: There is difference between "given" and "received." There is a further difference between "received" and "communicated." How do you ensure that what was "given" is what was "communicated?" Was it given to you?"

I look forward to your erudite responses.

Red herring as always.

AT

 

[sentipente]

Red herring as always.

AT

Of course you have no desire to understand what a passage really says because your interest is not in the passage but in your dogma. Why bother even quote the passage?

 

[JohnT]

Originally posted by John T

Since the bible (notice the lower case) speaks of "the Creator" –as you call it, but you do not believe that "the Creator" wrote the bible, neither fallibly nor infallibly, you are ultimately left with no authority other than your own coco, and it is a hodge podge of eclecticism, having no inherent authority other than "your EXPERIENCE with him". Also it is neither consistent nor systematic

.

I am having difficulty finding the logic in your comments. Are you suggesting that the Creator must have written the Bible for the Bible to exist? What does the existence of the Bible have to do with authority? Are you suggesting that no personal authority existed before the Bible was written?

It did not seem logical to me, either, but that is why I wrote it. What I did was take the words he wrote, and try to make sense of them.

Therefore, in your post, you confirm that Stormy's post is nonsense. Thank you.

BTW I was using the word coco as a slang for head. Nothing negative is inferred

This is EXACTLY why we are unable to come to an agreement about anything here vis-a-vis the Atonement. I am insisting on some sort of logical explanation from those of you opposing Anselm, and I get nothing from the Bible from you.

Does it not strike you as absurd that someone would get a belief, call it biblical and have it based upon nothing from the bible? In his own words, EXPERIENCE is what guides Stormy, not Scripture, nor any of the 28 Fundamental Beliefs of SDAism.

Rather than continue dealing with the absurd, I shall depart. This has turned so far astray from the OP, and is about yo go into ad hominems, which I assiduously avoided.

íAdios!

 

[sentipente]

It did not seem logical to me, either, but that is why I wrote it. What I did was take the words he wrote, and try to make sense of them.

Then you did a rather poor job of understanding him. If this was your attempt to rewrite what he had written maybe it would be best to try harder at comprehension.

 

[sentipente]

Does it not strike you as absurd that someone would get a belief, call it biblical and have it based upon nothing from the bible? In his own words, EXPERIENCE is what guides Stormy, not Scripture, nor any of the 28 Fundamental Beliefs of SDAism.

I did not realize that life, which is what Stormy is trying to deal with, is a product of the Bible or of the 28 Fundamental Beliefs of SDAism. If you have such evidence please share it.

 

[StormyOne]

All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.​

(2 Ti 3:16-17).


Stormy...just wondering if You believe this passage?


AT

when that was written, all scripture consisted of the OT..... shall we continue?

 

[StormyOne]

Stormy, I described your position, NOT your person. Big difference.

I described it as neither consistent nor systematic.

I'll add that it does not conform to any of the SDA fundamental beliefs.

I think you have control issues.... and dare I say it, you wish for everything to be black or white... easier for you to categorize I am sure.... sorry my friend, that is not the world I live in.....

Based upon that, I came to my probable conclusion, leaving room to be wrong by using the word "may".

BTW What is this CLAY quote? From where does it come?

yes you are wrong, won't be the first time nor the last..... the Clay quote has you intrigued huh....I like it too....

 

[StormyOne]

Originally posted by John T
.

It did not seem logical to me, either, but that is why I wrote it. What I did was take the words he wrote, and try to make sense of them.

Therefore, in your post, you confirm that Stormy's post is nonsense. Thank you.

we usually antagonize that which we don't understand... your reaction/response proves true....

BTW I was using the word coco as a slang for head. Nothing negative is inferred

This is EXACTLY why we are unable to come to an agreement about anything here vis-a-vis the Atonement. I am insisting on some sort of logical explanation from those of you opposing Anselm, and I get nothing from the Bible from you.

as I said before, just because you are in a box does not mean others are required to join you in your box....

Does it not strike you as absurd that someone would get a belief, call it biblical and have it based upon nothing from the bible? In his own words, EXPERIENCE is what guides Stormy, not Scripture, nor any of the 28 Fundamental Beliefs of SDAism.

we antagonize that which we don't understand..... I suspect if you could relax for a moment and resist the urge to be anal retentive about this, you would realize that indeed there are things in your life in which experience guides you, but then you might not admit it here as you wish to maintain the facade of being cerebral and logical......

Rather than continue dealing with the absurd, I shall depart. This has turned so far astray from the OP, and is about yo go into ad hominems, which I assiduously avoided.

íAdios!

perhaps its best as you seem to have difficulty understanding those things I have shared... take care my friend...

 

[StormyOne]

How about these...do you believe them?

Jesus said, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but through Me” (John 14:6, NASB)

and,

“For unless you believe that I am He, you shall die in your sins” (John 8:24, NASB).

AT

nope.... I believe that there will be people who get to heaven who will have no idea who Jesus is.... One need not be personally acquainted with their rescuer to be rescued... but that is another thread I am sure....

 

[Adventtruth]

when that was written, all scripture consisted of the OT..... shall we continue?

Yes lets continue.

So if scripture pertains to the OT do you believe what is said in 2 Tim concerning the OT ?


AT

 

[Adventtruth]

nope.... I believe that there will be people who get to heaven who will have no idea who Jesus is.... One need not be personally acquainted with their rescuer to be rescued... but that is another thread I am sure....

Ok thanks...have a good one.


AT

 

[sentipente]

Yes lets continue.

So if scripture pertains to the OT do you believe what is said in 2 Tim concerning the OT ?


AT

It is not good to rush. If you had taken some time you would have noted that the passage did not say, "only Scripture is given by inspiration of God." One word can make such a difference.

 

[StormyOne]

Yes lets continue.

So if scripture pertains to the OT do you believe what is said in 2 Tim concerning the OT ?


AT

possibly, that is a big "IF"... there are some other variables added to the mix that would have to be considered...

 

[Adventtruth]

possibly, that is a big "IF"... there are some other variables added to the mix that would have to be considered...

Do you care to kindly share the variables?

AT

 

[StormyOne]

Do you care to kindly share the variables?

AT

sure... first problem, we don't have any original manuscripts or source documents, we have copies of copies. Who is to say that the copies we have were copied without additional material included? Those who have been studying these copies have suggested that there is a strong likelihood that additional material was included. Second problem, if material has been added, is the added material also inspired? I don't think it would be. Third problem, if the information has been embellished or borrowed from other cultures does it still mean it is inspired? Those are some that stick out off the top of my head...