Article: what is wrong the substitutionary theory of atonement.

[StormyOne]

Necessary, who knows but none the less true. Notice Senti could do nothing to provide us with an answer as to why the idea of rebellion is "dis-proven"

As for deception not being rebellion that is hardly the way the story in Genesis regards the situation. Now I don't take the story literally but I do take it as allegorical truth. The story has man listening to half truths and choosing to go against the instruction of God. Because man wants to be what he is not, man wants to be God.

In simple terms man rebels against his own conscience which is the point of communication with God, as imperfect as that may be due to people's immersion in their cultural ideas it is still the place where reason says that we know what is right and what is wrong. We know it is better to care for other people then to just be self centered and self important. We know love is the better way and we rebel against it, to rebel against love is to rebel against God because God is love.

no it was not necessary for you to respond in the manner you did.... such is life....

 

[Adventtruth]

Necessary, who knows but none the less true. Notice Senti could do nothing to provide us with an answer as to why the idea of rebellion is "dis-proven"

As for deception not being rebellion that is hardly the way the story in Genesis regards the situation. Now I don't take the story literally but I do take it as allegorical truth. The story has man listening to half truths and choosing to go against the instruction of God. Because man wants to be what he is not, man wants to be God.

In simple terms man rebels against his own conscience which is the point of communication with God, as imperfect as that may be due to people's immersion in their cultural ideas it is still the place where reason says that we know what is right and what is wrong. We know it is better to care for other people then to just be self centered and self important. We know love is the better way and we rebel against it, to rebel against love is to rebel against God because God is love.

Good stuff to which I agree. We do agree on some things.

AT

 

[Adventtruth]

simple.... consequences are different for rebellion than they are for deception... or look at in another way, in the parables of the lost coin, lost sheep and the prodical's son, in two situations the thing that was lost could do nothing except wait for rescue.... the rebellious son had to choose to return home... the lesson there is obvious.....

I find it odd that you pick and choose what portion of scripture you reject and what portions you keep. JUst an observation.


AT

 

[StormyOne]

I find it odd that you pick and choose what portion of scripture you reject and what portions you keep. JUst an observation.


AT

as odd as the portions you choose to accept or reject? or will you even admit that you do pick and choose.... How about this AT, resist the urge to say anything to me as it is my observation that you are not interested in dialog...

 

[Adventtruth]

as odd as the portions you choose to accept or reject? or will you even admit that you do pick and choose.... How about this AT, resist the urge to say anything to me as it is my observation that you are not interested in dialog...

For the record, I use all of scripture, and you know that...thats why you called me a fundamentalist. Its only when others try to discredit one portion for another to prove there point, or decide one day scripture can be trusted, and the next day it can't.

Hey if you don't want me to say anything to you then put me on ignor. Or as the saying goes...if you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen. And for the record, thats all I have be doing is dialog. But if you post in a public forum its fair game. I must have plucked a nerve there. Sorry....all I did was make an observation. Must have been a good one. I guess one of you will try to get me band like some one did earlier in the week.

AT

 

[JohnT]

good to see you John T...... was hoping that there would be discussion as opposed to copy and paste but its all good....

Sorry if you do not like the cut-and paste. But I did it for three reasons:

1) The source is impeccable.
2) Quoting the ISBE will provide a common ground for discussion. Otherwise, it is you or me as an authority.
3) The thread was going in well-intentioned circles.

Please us it as a reference, and a basis for future discussion.

sentipente, you only read the last part. Did you cut and paste the article in its proper order, then read it?

Bottom line is that no word study can lead you into an understanding of what the true meaning of the Atonement is. Only after you look at and digest that can a good discussion be made on the Atonement.

 

[StormyOne]

For the record, I use all of scripture, and you know that...thats why you called me a fundamentalist. Its only when others try to discredit one portion for another to prove there point, or decide one day scripture can be trusted, and the next day it can't.

Hey if you don't want me to say anything to you then put me on ignor. Or as the saying goes...if you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen. And for the record, thats all I have be doing is dialog. But if you post in a public forum its fair game. I must have plucked a nerve there. Sorry....all I did was make an observation. Must have been a good one. I guess one of you will try to get me band like some one did earlier in the week.

AT

ummmm I never called you a fundamentalist RC did.... if I were to call you something it would be clueless... it is also apparent you prefer to think in terms of black and white, so it might be best you stay in your comfort zone..... ummm no nerve plucked, just trying to be cordial, but we don't have to be...

 

[RC_NewProtestants]

simple.... consequences are different for rebellion than they are for deception... or look at in another way, in the parables of the lost coin, lost sheep and the prodical's son, in two situations the thing that was lost could do nothing except wait for rescue.... the rebellious son had to choose to return home... the lesson there is obvious.....

The point of all three of those is the intent to return what was lost and the extent that God goes to. They have nothing to do with deceptions, in fact deceptions are very much related to the selfish wants of individuals. People are rarely deceived into doing something that they have no desire for at all. That the Biblical definition of sin is lawlessness is indicative of that rebellious desire which seems to have such a hold on mankind whereby they seek for themselves.

What is interesting is that in the Adam and Eve story which is based upon the understanding of people at that time, Eve saw the fruit that it was desireous to make one wise like God.

(Gen 3:5 NIV) "For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."

(Gen 3:6 NIV) When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it.

The idea in the reader's mind is to be like God...the God who just created everything out of nothing, powerful, who held all the power over human beings. Pretty enticing to be like God, especially for selfish people. What could be better than to be a god. But as the Old Testament progresses we see it is not so easy to be God to know good and evil means you have to be just and righteous and that is complicated in a world of violent people and nations out to destroy or dominate other nations. Then we get to Christ and we see that to be God you have to be a servant, you have to be willing to go a far as possible just to show them that you love them. We begin to see God as the redeemer who reaches out to save those who are enemies.

Through the spread of the Bible we grow in understanding of ourselves and God, power is nothing it cannot inspire love and justice has consequences that are far different from any selfish ideas we have because justice means a returning things to harmony and balance again something that power can't do short of destroying anything out of harmony, something love can't do and something that would destroy any concept of justice. By the end of the Bible we are pretty sure we know good and evil and that we are no where near having the wisdom of God to deal with it or the love of God to make us even want to deal with it. The book starts out with "we want to be gods" and ends with God not only as victor but as a majestic ruler worthy of worship.

 

[StormyOne]

RC I do apologize for suggesting that your reply was inappropriate to a previous comment..... it is apparent sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do......

 

[Adventtruth]

JohnT wrote:

The question will arise in the analysis of the doctrine: How does the death of Christ save us? No specific answer has ever been generally satisfactory. We have numerous theories of the Atonement. We have already intimated that the answer to this question will depend upon our idea of the nature of God, the nature of sin, the content of salvation, the nature of man, and our idea of Satan and evil spirits.

JohnT thanks for the very good article. I thought the above quote was interesting seeing that many are infact at odds because we view Gods nature and sin differently. While some of us see sin as a state, some only see it as an action, while some of us see Gods as righteousness, we never think His rightous nature has to destroy sin.


AT

 

[Adventtruth]

ummmm I never called you a fundamentalist RC did....

And you agreed with him so its just like you did. But its no problem to me. I've been called worse

if I were to call you something it would be clueless...

Sorry if I havent a clue as to where you come up with some of your logic....to which for the most part is no more than human intellectualizing at best. You discredit the bible in most post then you pull a rabbit trick and decide to give it credit.

it is also apparent you prefer to think in terms of black and white, so it might be best you stay in your comfort zone.....

Most things are black and white Clay....this you deny. Its a denial of reality. You want to give yourself wiggle room to move. You want to be different...an exclusivist. Most situations are not complicated at all. I admit some situations need to be thought through before a direction is decided on...it then becomes black and white. It is when you havent a clue when you decide to be in the middle. When talking to people, like the boy in the story you gave about the preacher dad hitting the mom, the middle ground clears when you decide the remedy...you have your black and white.

ummm no nerve plucked, just trying to be cordial, but we don't have to be...

Be yourself Clay.


AT

 

[StormyOne]

And you agreed with him so its just like you did. But its no problem to me. I've been called worse

whatever.....

Sorry if I havent a clue as to where you come up with some of your logic....to which for the most part is no more than human intellectualizing at best. You discredit the bible in most post then you pull a rabbit trick and decide to give it credit.

if that is your assessment, I will not stand in your way of being wrong.... and without a clue....

Most things are black and white Clay....this you deny. Its a denial of reality. You want to give yourself wiggle room to move. You want to be different...an exclusivist. Most situations are not complicated at all. I admit some situations need to be thought through before a direction is decided on...it then becomes black and white. It is when you havent a clue when you decide to be in the middle. When talking to people, like the boy in the story you gave about the preacher dad hitting the mom, the middle ground clears when you decide the remedy...you have your black and white.

maybe in the world you live in things are black and white, and that's fine AT, no one is asking you to leave it... stay where you are and enjoy the box you're in....

Be yourself Clay.


AT

that's all I've ever been......

 

[sentipente]

When talking to people, like the boy in the story you gave about the preacher dad hitting the mom, the middle ground clears when you decide the remedy...you have your black and white.

But it is a black v. white distinction that you created. You had to decide where the line is drawn, which means that there is no line. If you don't choose to believe me I recommend that you go to a paint shop tomorrow and ask the salesperson to give you a can of any brand of white paint. Report what happens.

 

[Xenon]

But it is a black v. white distinction that you created. You had to decide where the line is drawn, which means that there is no line.

God draws that line, and that line is told in the bible, which I'm sure is the line that AT uses.

 

[StormyOne]

God draws that line, and that line is told in the bible, which I'm sure is the line that AT uses.

an insightful comment by another member in another part of CF... they said (emphasis mine):

I perceived through spiritual intuition that God existed before the self-appointed representatives of Deity fooled me into stuffing Divinity into the bible box. I no longer treat the gamma and graphe of a book as if they are equal to logos, rhema and sophia. Preachers are just guessing what God is putting into their minds just like all the rest of us. There is indeed truth contained in our impressions and progressive inner revelations from on High. However, the institutional leaders of male patriarchy bind everyone else in ropes of authority by having us unquestioningly believe their invisible god-sent mental signals are the totality of absolute truth, while convincing the rest of us we can't be trusted to properly decipher what the mind of God is saying when we hear it for ourselves. Whenever we don't get the same message or revelation as the patriarchs, we are then expected to override our own will and obediently "self-validate" the truth of the preacher's interpretation as being correct. They get away with it because of the illusion that a human representation of God's authority in the form of preacher or priest carries the same weight and authority as that of God. The bible is said to be an authority, but it does not have a mouth to talk and interpret itself. Some man has to do it.

 

[Xenon]

Your second quote in your signature sums that quote up nicely.

Sure, bible interpretation will never be perfect while we're here on earth. However, relying on where to draw a line based on bible interpretation is much closer to what God wants than drawing a line so thick that the line becomes a "gray area". All that shows is that you don't know where to put the line. The bible works well for this purpose because it brings positive results every time it is applied with love and kindness, as Paul says to do. Since it draws a thin line, it easily divides people, and I've seen too many people who fall on the side against bible truth then go on to do much wickedness. That experience is enough to say to me that it is a good measure to use.

 

[Adventtruth]

But it is a black v. white distinction that you created. You had to decide where the line is drawn, which means that there is no line. If you don't choose to believe me I recommend that you go to a paint shop tomorrow and ask the salesperson to give you a can of any brand of white paint. Report what happens.

Its not about black versus white sentipente. Its not even about where the line is drawn. Its about seeing the solution clearly. In the pink you don't, you waver because you don't know. You start human intellectualizine the problem away. But when you see the extreams you have your black and white.


AT

 

[Adventtruth]

God draws that line, and that line is told in the bible, which I'm sure is the line that AT uses.

Thank you and you are so correct.

AT

 

[StormyOne]

Your second quote in your signature sums that quote up nicely.

Sure, bible interpretation will never be perfect while we're here on earth. However, relying on where to draw a line based on bible interpretation is much closer to what God wants than drawing a line so thick that the line becomes a "gray area". All that shows is that you don't know where to put the line. The bible works well for this purpose because it brings positive results every time it is applied with love and kindness, as Paul says to do. Since it draws a thin line, it easily divides people, and I've seen too many people who fall on the side against bible truth then go on to do much wickedness. That experience is enough to say to me that it is a good measure to use.

and how do you know what God wants? Need we go through the laundry list of horrendous things done by people who said they were using the bible and had God's permission? I would submit that as often as it has been used for good, it has been used for evil... I understand your view, I just don't share it....

 

[StormyOne]

Its not about black versus white sentipente. Its not even about where the line is drawn. Its about seeing the solution clearly. In the pink you don't, you waver because you don't know. You start human intellectualizine the problem away. But when you see the extreams you have your black and white.


AT

human intellect has determined the extremes......