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Phinehas2

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Dear davedjy,
You can't infer all forms of homosexuality from that reasoning
thats exactly what one can do, one cant reason not all forms of homosexuality.
You see as the Bible passages just say men sex bed and men with men instead of women one can say that covers all same-sex, but one has to make an assumption to say it doesnt, and there is no evidence of any exceptions on whihc to base that assumption.
 
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OllieFranz

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Dear davedjy,
thats exactly what one can do, one cant reason not all forms of homosexuality.
You see as the Bible passages just say men sex bed and men with men instead of women one can say that covers all same-sex, but one has to make an assumption to say it doesnt, and there is no evidence of any exceptions on whihc to base that assumption.

Actually, the ancient rabbis understood it to mean only that one should not be the "active partner" in one specific act. The fact that Leviticus 20:13 pronounces sentence on both partners caused many discussions about the "passive partner's" reponsibilities, until the rabbis decided that, as with many other of the Holiness Code regulations, they would declare a more restrictive set of rules to assure that no one could "accidentally" violate the Mosaic Law.

So then we have God saying that a Jew should not be a "top," and the rabbis saying, just to be safe, a Jew shouldn't be a "bottom" either. Neither said anything about non-Jews.
 
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lmnop9876

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so we have a compound word that includes, firstly, males, and secondly, bed (or, more logically, sex. lots of sex by the look of Romans 13:3). now the key question is, are the males the object of this compound word (i.e. is it referring to sex done to males) or are they the subject, i.e. sex done by males? Perhaps the only way to ascertain this to some extent is to look at other Greek compound words with the same structure. I don't have the time or the knowledge of Greek to do this (I've written the above out of a lexicon lol), but I do think it would be helpful to look at the way in which koites is used in other Greek compound words, including the structure and meaning of those words, and see how they compare to our interpretation of the meaning of arsenokoites.

anyone?
 
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Phinehas2

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Actually, the ancient rabbis understood it to mean only that one should not be the "active partner" in one specific act.
No not the Rabbis, you are attempting to rewrite history, the Rabbis knew that in the law that same-sex sex deserved death
The fact that Leviticus 20:13 pronounces sentence on both partners caused many discussions about the "passive partner's" reponsibilities, until the rabbis decided that, as with many other of the Holiness Code regulations, they would declare a more restrictive set of rules to assure that no one could "accidentally" violate the Mosaic Law.
evidence please?
 
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Der Alte

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[SIZE=-1]Actually, the ancient rabbis understood it to mean only that one should not be the "active partner" in one specific act. The fact that Leviticus 20:13 pronounces sentence on both partners caused many discussions about the "passive partner's" reponsibilities, until the rabbis decided that, as with many other of the Holiness Code regulations, they would declare a more restrictive set of rules to assure that no one could "accidentally" violate the Mosaic Law.

So then we have God saying that a Jew should not be a "top," and the rabbis saying, just to be safe, a Jew shouldn't be a "bottom" either. Neither said anything about non-Jews.[/SIZE]

The scripture prohibiting all forms of same gender sex dos not differentiate between Jew and gentile, but says "a man shall not lie with a man."

From the time of Moses, ca. 1200 BC, the Talmudic scholars interpreted the scriptures as condemning ALL homosexuals acts; by ALL persons, male and female; in ALL places, under ALL circumstance, at ALL times, NO exceptions.

The Talmudic scholars did NOT even mention, and did NOT limit the condemnation of homosexual acts to, “homosexual rape,” “temple prostitution,” pagan temples and/or religious activities!

Talmud -- Sanhedrin 54a

MISHNAH. HE WHO COMMITS SODOMY WITH A MALE OR A BEAST, AND A WOMAN THAT COMMITS BESTIALITY ARE STONED
. . . . Our Rabbis taught: If a man lieth also with mankind, as the lyings of a woman,29 both of them have committed on abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them,]. . . [Note: All upper case appears in the original]

Sanhedrin 54b

This teaches the punishment: whence do we derive the formal prohibition? — From the verse, Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is an abomination.[sup]1[/sup] . . . whence do we know a formal prohibition for the person who permits himself thus to be abused? — Scripture saith: There shall be no sodomite of the sons of Israel:[sup]2[/sup] and it is further said, . . .

Now, he who [actively] commits pederasty, and also [passively] permits himself to be thus abused — R. Abbahu said: On R. Ishmael's view, he is liable to two penalties, one [for the injunction] derived from thou shalt not lie with mankind, and the other for [violating the prohibition,] There shall not be a Sodomite of the sons of Israel. . . .

for there shall be no Sodomite applies to sodomy with mankind. [sup]13[/sup] . . .

Talmud link

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Jewish Encyclopedia - Dog

The shamelessness of the dog in regard to sexual life gave rise to the name ("dog") for the class of priests in the service of Astarte who practised sodomy ("kedeshim," called also by the Greeks &#954;&#965;&#957;&#945;&#943;&#948;&#959;&#953;, Deut. xxiii. 19 [A. V. 18]; compare ib. 18 [17] and Rev. xxii. 15; see Driver ad loc.), . . .(see "C. I. S." i., No. 86).

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=415&letter=D

Jewish Encyclopedia - Chastity

(e) The unnatural crimes against chastity, sodomy and pederasty, prevalent in heathendom, were strictly prohibited (Lev. xviii. 22, 23; xx. 13, 15, 16; Deut. xxvii. 21).

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=386&letter=C

Jewish Encyclopedia - DIDACHE -

Dependence upon Jewish Custom.


2: "Thou shalt not commit adultery" (Ex. xx. 14). (This includes: "Thou shalt not commit sodomy nor fornication.") "Thou shalt not steal" (Ex. xx. 15). . . .

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=341&letter=D

Jewish Encyclopedia - Crime

In three cases the person on the point of committing a crime may be killed: where he pursues a neighbor in order to kill him; where he pursues a male to commit sodomy;

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=301&letter=L

Jewish Encyclopedia - The 613 Commandments,: 3347-53.

Adultery, sodomy, etc. Lev. Xviii. 7, 14, 20, 22, 23.

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=689&letter=C
The following citations document the interpretation by contemporary orthodox Jewish scholars.
"We Can't Legitimate Homosexuality Halakhically" (USCJ Review, Spring 2004): Joel Roth

The two verses in the book of (Leviticus (18:22 and 20:13) which deal with homosexuality are really quite clear, despite the efforts of some to call their clarity into question. (Leviticus 18:22 and 20:13 absolutely forbid homosexual intercourse between males. The Rabbis, in the Sifra (Aharei Mot 9:8), also understand the Torah to forbid lesbianism. The Torah’s prohibitions, let it be clear, are against actions, like male homosexual intercourse, not against fantasies or attractions.

The Torah and the Rabbis do not distinguish between types of homosexuals in any way... The Rabbis were well able to conceive of monogamous and loving relationships between members of the same sex, and I quote in my paper the texts that prove this beyond reasonable question. But their words cannot possibly be read to imply that such monogamous or loving gay relationships are in a different halakhic [Jewish legal] category than any other relationships between members of the same sex. The prohibition is clear and total.”​

http://www.uscj.org/POINTRoth6331.html

Naomi Grossman, freelance journalist, states in her April 2001 article in Moment Magazine, "The Gay Orthodox Undergound":

"The Torah strictly forbids homosexual sex, and rabbis have consistently upheld that prohibition through the ages... The prohibition against homosexual sex comes from Leviticus: 'Do not lie with a male as one lies with a woman; it is an abhorrence' (18:22). In biblical times, the punishment for violating that code was clear. 'If a man lies with a male as one lies with a woman, the two of them have done an abhorrent thing; they shall be put to death -— their bloodguilt is upon them' (Leviticus 20:13). The Talmud extends the prohibition to lesbian sex [Hilchot Issurei Bi'ah 21:8]."

Official Orthodoxy makes no distinction between the sex act, which the Torah flatly prohibits, and homosexuality as a sexual identity.
"Homosexuality is not a state of being in traditional Judaism; it's an act," Freundel says. "Desires are … not relevant."​

http://members.aol.com/gayjews/moment.html
 
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OllieFranz

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Welcome back, Der Alter. While it would not quite be the truth to claim that I missed you, you do at times liven up the discussion.

No not the Rabbis, you are attempting to rewrite history, the Rabbis knew that in the law that same-sex sex deserved death
evidence please?

From the Babylonian Talmud, Folio 54 (Emphasis mine):
MISHNAH. HE WHO COMMITS SODOMY WITH A MALE OR A BEAST, AND A WOMAN THAT COMMITS BESTIALITY ARE STONED. IF THE MAN HAS SINNED, WHEREIN HAS THE ANIMAL OFFENDED? BUT BECAUSE MAN WAS ENTICED TO SIN THEREBY,28 SCRIPTURE ORDERED THAT IT SHOULD BE STONED. ANOTHER REASON IS THAT THE ANIMAL SHOULD NOT PASS THROUGH THE STREETS, WHILST PEOPLE SAY, THIS IS THE ANIMAL ON ACCOUNT OF WHICH SO AND SO WAS STONED.
GEMARA. Whence do I know that pederasty is punished by stoning? &#8212; Our Rabbis taught: [If a man lieth also with mankind, as the lyings of a woman,29 both of them have committed on abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them,]30 A man &#8212; excludes a minor; [that] lieth also with mankind &#8212; denotes whether an adult or a minor; as the lyings of a woman &#8212; this teaches that there are two modes of intimacy,31 both of which are punished when committed incestuously. R. Ishmael said: This verse comes to throw light [upon pederasty] but receives illumination itself.32 They shall surely be put to death: by stoning. You say, by stoning: but perhaps some other death decreed in the Torah is meant? &#8212; Their blood shall be upon them is stated here, and also in the case of one who has a familiar spirit or is a wizard:33 just as there the reference is to stoning, so it is here too.
This teaches the punishment: whence do we derive the formal prohibition? &#8212; From the verse, Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is an abomination.1 From this we learn the formal prohibition for him who lies [with a male]: whence do we know a formal prohibition for the person who permits himself thus to be abused?

&#8212; Scripture saith: There shall be no sodomite of the sons of Israel:2 and it is further said, And there were also sodomites in the land: and they did according to the abominations of the nations which the Lord had cast out before the children of Israel:3 this is R. Ishmael's view. R. Akiba said: This is unnecessary, the Writ saith, thou shalt not lie with mankind as with womankind: read, 'thou shalt not be lain with.'4 Whence do we learn a formal prohibition against bestiality? &#8212; Our Rabbis taught: [and if a man lie with a beast, he shall surely be put to death: and ye shall slay the beast].5 A man excludes a minor; [that] lieth with a beast &#8212; whether it be young or old; he shall surely be put to death &#8212; by stoning. You, by stoning; but perhaps one of the other deaths decreed in the Torah is meant? &#8212; It is here said, [and] ye shall kill [the beast]; and it is stated elsewhere, But thou shalt surely kill him. [&#8230; And thou shalt stone in him with stones]:6 just as there, stoning is meant, so here too.
We have learnt from this the punishment for him who commits bestiality; whence do we derive punishment for him who allows himself to be thus abused? &#8212; The Writ saith: Whosoever lieth with a beast shall surely be put to death.7 Since this is redundant in respect of the person committing bestiality,8 you must regard it as applying to the person permitting himself to be thus abused.9 From the Writ we know that there is punishment both for him who commits bestiality and for him who permits himself to be thus abused; whence do we know the formal prohibition? &#8212; Scripture saith, neither shalt thou lie with any beast to defile thyself therewith.10 From this verse we learn the formal prohibition for him who commits bestiality, whence do we derive the formal prohibition for him who allows himself to be thus abused? Scripture saith: There shall be no Sodomite of the sons of Israel; and it is elsewhere said, And there were also sodomites in the land, etc.11 R. Akiba said: This is unnecessary. The Writ saith, Thou shalt not lie [with any beast], which means, thou shalt not permit thy lying [with any beast, whether actively or passively].
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Underlining indicates text censored from the Rodkinson Talmud Now, he who [actively] commits pederasty, and also [passively] permits himself to be thus abused &#8212; R. Abbahu said: On R. Ishmael's view, he is liable to two penalties, one [for the injunction] derived from thou shalt not lie with mankind, and the other for [violating the prohibition,] There shall not be a Sodomite of the sons of Israel. But on R. Akiba's view, he incurs only one penalty, since thou shalt not lie and thou shalt not be lain with is but one statement.12
He who commits bestiality, and also causes himself to be thus abused &#8212; R. Abbahu said: On R. Ishmael's view, he incurs two penalties, one for the injunction, thou shalt not lie with any beast, and one for the prohibition, there shall be no sodomite of the sons of Israel. But on R. Akiba's view, he incurs but one penalty, since thy lying [actively] and thy lying [passively] is but one injunction. Abaye said: Even on R. Ishmael's view he incurs one penalty only, for there shall be no Sodomite applies to sodomy with mankind.13 If so, whence does R. Ishmael derive a formal prohibition against permitting oneself to be bestially abused? &#8212; From the verse, Whosoever lieth with a beast shall surely be put to death.14 Now, this being redundant in respect of him who [actively] lies with a beast,15 apply it to him who [passively] permits himself to be abused this; and the Divine Law designates the passive offender as the active offender:16 this teaches that the punishment for, and the formal prohibition against, active bestiality17 apply to passive submission too.18 He who submits both to pederasty and to bestiality &#8212; R. Abbahu said: On R. Akiba's view, he incurs two penalties; one for thou shalt not lie [with mankind], and the other for thou shalt not lie [with any beast]. But on R. Ishmael's view, he incurs only one punishment, both offences being derived from the single verse, There shall be no Sodomite.19 Abaye said: Even on R. Ishmael's view, he incurs two penalties, because it is written, Whosoever lieth with a beast shall surely be put to death.20 This being redundant in respect of active bestiality, it must be applied to passive submission, and the Divine Law thus designated passive submission as an active offence: just as for the active offence there is punishment and prohibitions so for the passive offence too.21 But he who commits pederasty and causes himself to be abused thus; and also commits bestiality and causes himself to be abused too &#8212; both R. Abbahu and Abaye maintain that on R. Ishmael's view he is trebly guilty, and on R. Akiba's view he is doubly guilty.22 Our Rabbis taught: In the case of a male child, a young one is not regarded as on a par with an old one; but a young beast is
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[SIZE=-1]Dilling Exhibit 54[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]Begins[/SIZE]
treated as an old one.23 What is meant by this? &#8212; Rab said: Pederasty with a child below nine years of age is not deemed as pederasty with a child above that. Samuel said: Pederasty with a child below three years is not treated as with a child above that.24 What is the basis of their dispute? &#8212; Rab maintains that only he who is able to engage in sexual intercourse, may, as the passive subject of pederasty throw guilt [upon the active offender]; whilst he who is unable to engage in sexual intercourse cannot be a passive subject of pederasty [in that respect].25 But Samuel maintains: Scripture writes, [And thou shalt not lie with mankind] as with the lyings of a woman.26 It has been taught in accordance with Rab: Pederasty at the age of nine years and a day;

So, the rabbis were divided about whether the Levitical ban included the "passive" partner. The wording of the ban only implicated the "active" partner, but both partners are condemned. Some rabbis claimed that the fact that the punishment extended to the "passive" partner, so did the guilt. Most of the rabbis pointed out that the beast shares in the punishment of someone engaged in bestiality, and so the conclusion that both are guilty is questionable.

They then used the ban on the qedeshim (Deut 23:18) as the basis for charging guilt to the "passive" partner. The counter argument seems to be that then, the "active" partner would have to be twice guilty for a single act. In any case, there is no consensus on the Biblical basis for claiming the "passive" partner is guilty, and therefore, as I stated, it was the decision of the rabbis, not the wording of the Levitical Ban that decreed that all homosexual activity was forbidden.

Strangely, it would appear that although pederasty with an adolescent was considered to be "lying with mankind," and deserving of death by stoning, child molesting was not. If the child was considered to be too young to respond, then he could not "throw guilt" upon his molester.
 
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OllieFranz

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The scripture prohibiting all forms of same gender sex dos not differentiate between Jew and gentile, but says "a man shall not lie with a man."

The scripture does not prohibit "all forms of same gender sex," and the rabbis understood that, as I posted above. They also understood it to apply only to the Jews.


You have quoted from the Talmud, but you did not go far enough. Throughout this discussion, the rabbis equate the circumstances and sins of Leviticus 18:22 and 20:13 to those of Leviticus 18:23 and Leviticus 20:15-16. In Folio 55, as the discussion continues, the question comes up whether a beast that has been "worshipped" by a heathen must be destroyed. One of the reasons that the Mishna gives for killing the beast is that it is a reminder that the man "degraded" himself, but this reason does not apply when it is a heathen engaging in bestiality.

From that point until the end of the section and the next Mishnah passage, the discussion remains, more-or-less on bestiality*, and never gets back to homosexuality, but the implication is clear. The Levitical ban does not apply to non-Jews. Less clear is whether or not a Jewish "bottom" sins if he engages with a non-Jewish "top," but that is neither here nor there.

*There is a digression concerning 3-year-old wives and 9-year-old husbands, but it is to somehow make the point that the animal can be destroyed, even though the man is not "degraded."
 
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Phinehas2

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Dear Olliefranz,
So, the rabbis were divided about whether the Levitical ban included the "passive" partner. The wording of the ban only implicated the "active" partner, but both partners are condemned.
How is this relevant to Christians? Were the teachers of the law already making things up legalistically when Jesus corrected them Matt 19. If the active partner is guilty then same-sex sex is error isn&#8217;t it
 
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OllieFranz

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Dear Olliefranz,
How is this relevant to Christians?


That is the $64,000 question. Since the Holiness Code has only ever applied to the Jews, and since Christians are specifically exempted from the Holiness Code, it is only relevant historically.

Were the teachers of the law already making things up legalistically when Jesus corrected them Matt 19.

I'm not sure that I would use the harsh language that you would. The Pharisees and rabbis would have seen it as interpreting the scripture, rather than "making things up," but otherwise,yes your statement is basically correct. The dispute in Matthew 19, for example: from the Pharisees' point of view wasn't about whether divorce was permissible, but whether a relatively new form of divorce procedure "a divorce for any reason" (essentially a "no-fault" divorce) was legal. The rabbis on both sides had scriptures they could quote to justify their position. The Pharisees thought to entrap Jesus on one side or the other of this debate. He surprised them by going beyond the debate to show what the Scriptures really taught.

If the active partner is guilty then same-sex sex is error isn’t it

If you are under the Holiness Code, yes. If you are a Jew, you should not be the active member of such an act. Since you would share the responsibility and the punishment, you should not be the passive partner, either.
 
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