arsenokoités

[MrPirate]

the translation of the word arsenokoités from 1 Corinthians is brought up a lot in these threads. When evidence is presented that the word does not translate as ‘homosexual’ many dismiss that evidence yet provide no corroborating evidence that arsenokoités actually does mean homosexual.
What is presented is at best:
An appeal to authority (someone else translated it to mean homosexual therefore I don’t have to look at the evidence that the translation is wrong)
An appeal to history (we’ve translated it that way for years, therefore it must be correct.
And at worst:
An appeal to wide spread belief (everyone KNOWS it means that, so no need to look at evidence I might not like)

And at the very very worst:
Flaming those posting the evidence (read any post for examples)
Flaming the historians, linguists, theologians and researchers (that person is the member of a minority…therefore he/she is biased and we can ignore anything they say.)


So instead of relying on flaming or fallacious arguments present some real evidence.

If you insist that arsenokoités means homosexual then show us some evidence to support that claim.

 

[Zaac]

the translation of the word arsenokoités from 1 Corinthians is brought up a lot in these threads. When evidence is presented that the word does not translate as ‘homosexual’ many dismiss that evidence yet provide no corroborating evidence that arsenokoités actually does mean homosexual.
What is presented is at best:
An appeal to authority (someone else translated it to mean homosexual therefore I don’t have to look at the evidence that the translation is wrong)
An appeal to history (we’ve translated it that way for years, therefore it must be correct.
And at worst:
An appeal to wide spread belief (everyone KNOWS it means that, so no need to look at evidence I might not like)

And at the very very worst:
Flaming those posting the evidence (read any post for examples)
Flaming the historians, linguists, theologians and researchers (that person is the member of a minority…therefore he/she is biased and we can ignore anything they say.)


So instead of relying on flaming or fallacious arguments present some real evidence.

If you insist that arsenokoités means homosexual then show us some evidence to support that claim.

As has been stated before, there is no need to debate over this word. Unless you present the same level of research and historical acumen for the Hebrew or Greek of every word that is a sin, the incessant dwelling and twisting on this one means nothing.

It speaks to a bias that says your concern is about proving a presupposed bias correct and not about finding truth.

This is a spiritual issue. It is not something that will change because some people did a word study.

Keep reminding them of these things. Warn them before God against quarreling about words; it is of no value, and only ruins those who listen. 2 Tim 2:14

 

[ReformedChapin]

As has been stated before, there is no need to debate over this word. Unless you present the same level of research and historical acumen for the Hebrew or Greek of every word that is a sin, the incessant dwelling and twisting on this one means nothing.

It speaks to a bias that says your concern is about proving a presupposed bias correct and not about finding truth.

This is a spiritual issue. It is not something that will change because some people did a word study.

Keep reminding them of these things. Warn them before God against quarreling about words; it is of no value, and only ruins those who listen. 2 Tim 2:14

That was just pure rhetoric. The best they can do is provide conspiracy theories that the church has had a culture bias against homosexuality that's why the translations are incorrect. Homosexuality has always been understood historically to be a sin back to rabinical tradition.

 

[Apollo Celestio]

If it was not of God, this everlasting "culture bias" should 've died out, don't you think?

 

[TheFathersDaughter]

So far the responses are "So who cares?"

Wow, that's some great debating you guys.

 

[Apollo Celestio]

So far the responses are "So who cares?"

Wow, that's some great debating you guys.

I'm no expert on languages. :/ I just read what scripture says. Even through all this evidence, it does not seem to allow man/man woman/woman sex..

 

[ReformedChapin]

So far the responses are "So who cares?"

Wow, that's some great debating you guys.

No so far the response has been, you got nothing. And the liberal has the burden of proof in this situation since the tradition understanding for arsenokoités has been in place for 2000 years.

 

[TheFathersDaughter]

No so far the response has been, you got nothing. And the liberal has the burden of proof in this situation since the tradition understanding for arsenokoités has been in place for 2000 years.

He has provided proof. Translators agree that arsenokoités doesn't mean homosexuality without some serious roundabout defining. We've taken our burden of proof and as he said, we're only met with more "No you're wrongs".

How about YOU tell me what it really means? That would be debating.

Besides, appeal to history/popular belief is appeal to man. Just because it's "traditional" doesn't mean it's true. Slavery was tradition and accepted by all but it wasn't right. That is a very earthly way of thinking coming from someone who believes we homosexual Christians are the epitome of earthly things.

 

[ReformedChapin]

He has provided proof. Translators agree that arsenokoités doesn't mean homosexuality without some serious roundabout defining. We've taken our burden of proof and as he said, we're only met with more "No you're wrongs".

What proof? And if that's true why is that nearly all translations indicate homosexulaity or imply it?

How about YOU tell me what it really means? That would be debating.

homosexuals?

Besides, appeal to history/popular belief is appeal to man. Just because it's "traditional" doesn't mean it's true. Slavery was tradition and accepted by all but it wasn't right. That is a very earthly way of thinking coming from someone who believes we homosexual Christians are the epitome of earthly things.

Translators disagree, I think the traditional understanding is correct that's beside my logical deduction that male and female parts natural flow toghther and does not occur with homosexuality. If someone can provide me evidence that GOD wants homosexual relationships I would love to hear it but everything so far has been pure speculation.

 

[MrPirate]

As has been stated before, there is no need to debate over this word. Unless you present the same level of research and historical acumen for the Hebrew or Greek of every word that is a sin, the incessant dwelling and twisting on this one means nothing.

How many other bible verses are depended upon to justify discrimination against an entire minority? This word is used to justify hate and discrimination….is that not reason enough to examine it?

Even if that were not the case you are saying that truth doesn’t matter and it is wrong to look for the truth when it conflicts with your personal viewpoints.

It speaks to a bias that says your concern is about proving a presupposed bias correct and not about finding truth.

You have claimed bias before a flaming of the many historians, linguists, theologians and researchers and others who dare to look for the truth and present it. Previously I have asked you to substantiate your claims of bias…you have ignored such requests.

This is a spiritual issue. It is not something that will change because some people did a word study.

No it is an issue of linguistics history and the search for truth. Though we might wonder about the spiritual implications of denying the truth and trying to silence those who look for it.

Keep reminding them of these things. Warn them before God against quarreling about words; it is of no value, and only ruins those who listen. 2 Tim 2:14

And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. John 8:32
you cannot know the truth if you refuse to look

 

[MrPirate]

That was just pure rhetoric. The best they can do is provide conspiracy theories that the church has had a culture bias against homosexuality that's why the translations are incorrect. Homosexuality has always been understood historically to be a sin back to rabinical tradition.

A fine example of flaming the historians, linguists, theologians and researchers


If you can’t provide any evidence to back up the translation of arsenokoites as homosexual just say so

 

[MrPirate]

If it was not of God, this everlasting "culture bias" should 've died out, don't you think?

Just like racism has died out…oh…wait….never mind

 

[MrPirate]

No so far the response has been, you got nothing. And the liberal has the burden of proof in this situation since the tradition understanding for arsenokoités has been in place for 2000 years.

Appeal to history.

 

[MrPirate]

What proof? And if that's true why is that nearly all translations indicate homosexulaity or imply it?

Appeal to authority

Just because the mistranslation is popular is not evidence that it is correct.

homosexuals?

PROVE IT

Translators disagree,

Yes they do. But no one talks about the evidence that arsenokoiteis means homosexual…no one. The only support it receives is fallacious arguments which is proof of nothing.

So show us the evidence accumulated by the linguists who agree with you

I think the traditional understanding is correct that's beside my logical deduction that male and female parts natural flow toghther and does not occur with homosexuality.

Your opinion on an unrelated topic is not evidence that arsenokoites means homosexual

If someone can provide me evidence that GOD wants homosexual relationships I would love to hear it but everything so far has been pure speculation.

Non-sequitor.
Nothing to do with the topic.
Don’t change the subject

 

[Cash80]

I know that in the Russian language, the word arsenakoite was translated as muzhelozhniki and it applied to men engaging in homosexual sex for 800 years. What could be the explanation for that?

 

[Apollo Celestio]

Just like racism has died out…oh…wait….never mind

So from the start, it was all racism, the writers of scripture too?

 

[MrPirate]

I know that in the Russian language, the word arsenakoite was translated as muzhelozhniki and it applied to men engaging in homosexual sex for 800 years. What could be the explanation for that?

 

[MrPirate]

So from the start, it was all racism, the writers of scripture too?

Your appeal to history failed.

So can you provide evidence that the word arsenokoites actually means homosexual or not?

 

[Splayd]

MrPirate - What you are asking of us is absurd. It's like asking me to prove what "cat" means without appealing to common usage, translators, authority, tradition etc...

Words aquire their meaning from usage. Pure and simple. The word "terrific" for example, should mean much the same as the word "horrific"... but it doesn't mean anything like that to the listener or the user of the word in general usage. The fact that the word "arsenokoites" has been received in this context to mean the same as the word "homosexual" from as early as we can ascertain is sufficient reason to accept the translation as accurate. I'm not particularly familiar with the evidence to the contrary. Are you able to demonstrate a time when the usage of the word within scripture was understood differently?

 

[MrPirate]

MrPirate - What you are asking of us is absurd. It's like asking me to prove what "cat" means without appealing to common usage, translators, authority, tradition etc...

It is absurd to back up claims about a translation?

Why?

And as noted in the OP evidence that aresnokoites does not translate as homosexual has been provided on literally dozens of these threads without resorting to fallacious arguments. We regularly get to read evidence form historical contextual analysis, linguistics, etymology. So where is the equivalent evidence to back up claims that the word translates as homosexual?

Well we never get to see any…just denials, flames and fallacious arguments.

Words aquire their meaning from usage. Pure and simple. The word "terrific" for example, should mean much the same as the word "horrific"... but it doesn't mean anything like that to the listener or the user of the word in general usage. The fact that the word "arsenokoites" has been received in this context to mean the same as the word "homosexual" from as early as we can ascertain is sufficient reason to accept the translation as accurate.

An appeal to history
Appeal to authority
Neither are evidence of an accurate translation and neither are cause to accept said translation especially in the light of evidence showing that the translation is incorrect.

I'm not particularly familiar with the evidence to the contrary. Are you able to demonstrate a time when the usage of the word within scripture was understood differently?

Shifting goalposts
Changing topic
Shifting burden of proof